PALUBA

English Language Discussion => Forum za traženje pomoći na stranom jeziku => Topic started by: lupodimare89 on September 28, 2013, 03:07:33 pm

Prijatelji

▼▼▼▼

Mesto za Vaš baner

kontakt: brok@paluba.info



Title: Question about Partizan Naval Battles during WWII
Post by: lupodimare89 on September 28, 2013, 03:07:33 pm
Hello! I'm an italian user, member and contributor of an italian forum about naval warfare. In recent time i started to get interest about the activity of the Partizan flottilla of NB and PC boats, however i managed to find some interesting data and events that needs more details and others that are a bit obscure.

I write some of the most hot-topic questions about the most interesting naval engagements between partizan boats and the German ones, however there are many others that i could write in future.

(this short lists it's about engagement with Kriegsmarine  non-converted warships/armed motorships/schooners etc..).


2 June 1944
The second largest naval engagement involving a partizan boat. The NB-8 Korat had a clash against the German motor torpedo boat S-153, S-155, S-156 and S-157. A tricky attempt of boarding done by S-156 was prevented in the last minute, with a German sailor knocked out abord the Kornat and captured. In the following engagement S-155 and S-156 received damages (20mm hits). At 01.45 also S-153 and S-157 joined the fight. A second round of attack started at 02.15, with agains S-156 (small fires) and S-155 (multiple hits) damaged.
After the battle Kornat had 9 wounded.
I've failed to find exact data about the losses of the German motor torpedo boats. Even if some account speak about of partizan claims of damages on all the enemy units involved, the German War Diaries i've found mention only 2 S-boats damaged (S-155 and S-156).


Night between 5 and 6 Agust 1944
Engagement between partizan PC-22 Streljko against the german auxiliary minesweepers R-15 and R-16  in Murter Channel
I've failed to find details about the engagement: there were german or partizan damages/causalities?
Reading a general German War Diary of Kriegsmarine translated in english, germans mention only "many hits were scored on the gunboat (=Streljko)" without mention to their own boats.


5 September 1944
Partizan PC-53 Zora fought an unknown enemy ship near Makaraska.
I've failed to find further data.
German War Diary doesn't mention engagement but could easily lack about it: it however mention two losses, auxiliary minesweeper R-12 hit a mine and exploded at 05.25.   German coast guard vessel KS-20 "burnt and sunk after an engine explosion"
Someone know if these two events could be correlated with the engagemnt of Zora? Or if some else boat was involved in the fight?


23 October 1944
The largest Yugoslavian naval battle of the WWII. Online i've found only very few data about PC-2 Macola  , NB-14 Pionir, PC-24 Marjan and PC-4 Junak  fighting against the two large submarine chasers UJ-202 and UJ-208 near Maun island (ex-italian corvettes), with all units involved receiving small damages.
Actually reading the German War Diaries there are many many more details to check.
Germans actually claimed that they've been attacked by an overwhelming force of enemy units.
At first they said there was a clash of unspecified hour of the day 23 October.  Then on evening (hour 21.45) there was the main battle against "9 motor torpedo boats and gunboats" near Maun Island.
There the Germans did many (over)claims: UJ-208 claimed to have sunk a gunboat and a motor torpedo boat plus damaging other two MTBs
UJ-202 claimed to have sunk 2 gunboats and set afire a motor torpedo boat.
Apart this (erroneus) claims, the War Diaries still confirm that both the german warship were damaged (even if lightly) and recevied causalities for an amount of 3 KIA and 11 WIA.

This is usally not wrote in the very few lines of the battle i've found online.

But this isn't ended.
The German first say that the submarinechasers managed to sunk another motor torpedo boat on the morning of day 24 October, then they admit that a northbound convoy took part in the engagement of the evening of 23 October at Maun Island too!

It was a convoy formed of armed motor landing barges MFP kinds,
The F-554 claimed to have probably destroyed a gunboat with a direct hit of 88mm
THen the convoy succeeded "in making further hits on motor torpedo boats and gunboats": But the germans admitted that also the vessels of the convoy were seriously hit and dispersed, with the "radio station of the command boat that had broken down" and finally with the unit F-443 that was admitted as sunk.

All these engagements were claimed by Germans to have been fought against British small units, but the date it's the one with the battle fought by the partisan boats, also i've tried to find British data but they don't mentions involvment or fights on 23 October.
Also a book of Bryan Cooper that mentions some of the British actions of the mediterranean, say clearly that the largest British battle occurred on 11 October (against another MFP convoy, that was destroyed), without a word about a possible battle on 23 October.

Another German site mentioning the fate of F-443 speak of "British gunboats" as cause (possibly taking as source the same war diaries i've found).

Searching on British data, the MGB-659,662,674 and MTB-637 and MTB-638  of the 56th Flottilla were on passage from Vis to Ist on 21 October (and there destroyed a small convoy of I boats, with 92 enemy POW). They were NOT in action 2 days later at Maun Island.
The 57th Flottilla was involved in the big battle on 11 October, and nothing else until 1945.


Every comment, evaluations, confirms, denials, further data etc... it's more then appreciated!


Title: Re: Question about Partizan Naval Battles during WWII
Post by: MOTORISTA on September 28, 2013, 05:10:37 pm
Hi lupodimare and welcome on board ( Paluba)

In the night of 22/23. october 1944, three patrol boats ( PČ-2 Macola, PČ-4 Junak and PČ-24 Marjan) and one armed ship ( NB-14 Pionir), were dispatched in Koromačna bay on Maun island with orders to attack any German transport ships on their way to and from city of Zadar. In the early morning on 23.10.1944, around 5 AM, ships raised they anchors and started their voyage home, but was spotted by German corvettes UJ202 ( ex-Melpomene) and UJ208 ( ex-Spingarda) of Gabbiano class. From the distance of 1,5NM first German ship in the line fired one luminous shell, and then both corvettes opened fire from their 20 mm cannons. At times they used their 100 mm canons. Partisan ships started to return fire , and broke their formation. At the moment of breaking of formation, PČ-4, put two smoke boxes in the water to conceal the retreat. Germans concentrated their fire on smoked area, so the Partisan ships managed to escape. This battle lasted for 10 minutes. All of the Partisan ships were seriosly damaged, and 4 crew members of NB-14 was wounded. According to Partisan documents, German ships recived no damage and no casulties.  Partisans tought that they were fighting against three S-boots, and Germans tought that they were fighting one MGB and three MTB.

Here you have some details about Partisan navy ships:

Armed ships (https://www.paluba.info/smf/index.php/topic,1059.0.html)

Patrol boats (https://www.paluba.info/smf/index.php/topic,1216.0.html)


Title: Re: Question about Partizan Naval Battles during WWII
Post by: MOTORISTA on September 28, 2013, 05:24:37 pm
Here is text about NB-8 battle. It is in SC language, and I am afraid that you must use google translate :P

Battle of Blitvenica (https://www.paluba.info/smf/index.php/topic,1117.0.html)


Title: Re: Question about Partizan Naval Battles during WWII
Post by: brodarski on September 28, 2013, 05:59:50 pm
lupodimare from betasomm?


Title: Re: Question about Partizan Naval Battles during WWII
Post by: lupodimare89 on September 28, 2013, 07:32:31 pm

Quote
Here is text about NB-8 battle. It is in SC language, and I am afraid that you must use google translate Tongue
Thanks ^^ no problem will do it easily.

Quote
lupodimare from betasomm?
Yes ^^

Quote
In the early morning on 23.10.1944, around 5 AM, ships raised they anchors and started their voyage home, but ...
Ok so the battle involving partisans boats was only at the morning right? A bit disappointing...
You (or someone else) has found something about who could have been involved in the successive hours and in evening?
Or could have met the convoy of MFPs?



Title: Re: Question about Partizan Naval Battles during WWII
Post by: lupodimare89 on September 28, 2013, 08:31:15 pm
Damn... wrote wrong the MFP name, it was F-433, not F-443 <.<



Title: Re: Question about Partizan Naval Battles during WWII
Post by: MOTORISTA on September 29, 2013, 08:49:54 am
Quote
In the early morning on 23.10.1944, around 5 AM, ships raised they anchors and started their voyage home, but ...
Ok so the battle involving partisans boats was only at the morning right? A bit disappointing...
You (or someone else) has found something about who could have been involved in the successive hours and in evening?
Or could have met the convoy of MFPs?


That is all I have for now. Maby French cruisers from 10.DCT had to do something with that.

There was another clash between Partizan and German ships near Maun island on the 9.10.1944, when NB-13 Partizan and PČ-2 Macola captured German transport ship Angelina. Germans had 3KIA and 9POW, while Partizans had 2WIA.


Title: Re: Question about Partizan Naval Battles during WWII
Post by: lupodimare89 on September 29, 2013, 11:48:01 am


That is all I have for now. Maby French cruisers from 10.DCT had to do something with that.

There was another clash between Partizan and German ships near Maun island on the 9.10.1944, when NB-13 Partizan and PČ-2 Macola captured German transport ship Angelina. Germans had 3KIA and 9POW, while Partizans had 2WIA.
[/quote]

Oh ok, but don't worry ; ) I will give you a burst of questions also about the other engagements with transports, boats etc that welle boarded/captured etc..

I wanted to start thinking at the most "hot" topics, as for direct clashes with such regular units of the Kriegsmarine.

Um... French cruisers you say? I could try to search about it, however the German text was quiet clear about an engagement with small units, similar to the ones that clashed with on morning. If you're curious here there is the text of the war diary.
http://archive.org/stream/wardiarygermann621944germ#page/494/mode/2up
Page 495 (first mention), Page 497 (further details), Page 514 (strange reference of report of the battle occurred on "the morning of 23", should have been of the whole day or evenining). Page 528 (report of the MFP convoy).

Honestly i think that they still should have meet small boats, and the options are two:
1) the partisan crafts had some short exchange of fire on evening, maybe without notice the effect on enemy or on MFP.
2) maybe some other partisan crafts sailed that evening
3) Possibility of involvment of British MTB/MGB (as claimed by Germans, that still could have easily confused partisan boats with British ones)
I've checked this site for data: http://cfv.org.uk/forum/
About the 57th Flottilla ( MGB 638, MGB 659, MGB 660, MGB 662, MGB 674, MTB 634, MTB 637, MTB 670) there are diaries of  638, 359, 662, 634, 670. without a word about events occurring on 23/23/24 October.
About the 60th Flottilla (MGB 643, MGB 645, MGB 646, MGB 647 MGB 661, MTB 651, MTB 656, MTB 667 ) there are diaries of 646 and 647, again nothing happened around 22/23/24 October.
Exactly who were the others British Flottillas involved in fightings?
Still nothing surface from the general British accounts of warfare in Adriatic about fighting on 22/23/24: the main fightings of that months were the ones of 11 October and 21 October (this was an attack with destruction of convoy of I boats).




Title: Re: Question about Partizan Naval Battles during WWII
Post by: MOTORISTA on September 29, 2013, 03:56:39 pm
In our records we have that only one clash occured that morning. There is no record of further engagement of our ships with Germans on that day. Even if that official documents were lost during the rest of the war, there was plenty memoires and books about Partizan navy units, where would this clash be described.


Title: Re: Question about Partizan Naval Battles during WWII
Post by: lupodimare89 on September 29, 2013, 05:49:20 pm
Ok, thanks... it's still very much frustrating when naval warfare events remains unclear/unexplained v.v
Will try asking online if some british units took part at the evening engagement.
Still there is even the possibility of mistakes (that German war diary has mistakes here and there) but this event seemed well described to be one of them.

There are further data about the two engagements involving PC-22 Streljko vs R-15 + R-16   and  PC-53 Zora vs unknown ship?


Title: Re: Question about Partizan Naval Battles during WWII
Post by: MOTORISTA on September 29, 2013, 08:49:19 pm
About PČ-53 I have only that it was involved in brief clash with enemy ship near Makarska on 5th september. It was probably armed merchant or transport ship.

PČ-22 was involved in clash with R-15 and R-16, but in our documents there is no mentions of any casulties on our or German side.


Title: Re: Question about Partizan Naval Battles during WWII
Post by: lupodimare89 on September 30, 2013, 10:51:59 am
About PČ-53 I have only that it was involved in brief clash with enemy ship near Makarska on 5th september. It was probably armed merchant or transport ship.

PČ-22 was involved in clash with R-15 and R-16, but in our documents there is no mentions of any casulties on our or German side.

About R-15 and R-16 sadly there are few words. Because basically that online it's the general kriegsmarine war diary, one should find the specific one for Adriatic. However they claimed such "many hits scored" on the enemy boat, no other details sadly. Could be overclaim.

About 5 September.
The R-12 was reported sunk by mine at 05.25 hour of morning.
Location is not clear, was escorting units to lay minefield "Nutria" and "Feh-3" and the operation was stopped due drifting mine. So it's almost sure that that was the cause of sinking of R-12 (not understood the location, on previous page was wrote of Brac Island, but it doesn't say that this was the location for the 2 fiels).

There is no detail or place or hour about the loss of KS-20.

Nothing also in the following day.

There is no mention of short firefight, but if the boat/transport was in hands of the Ustasha, it's likely that the war diary don't report it (expecially if it wasn't an engagement with heavy result).




Title: Re: Question about Partizan Naval Battles during WWII
Post by: lupodimare89 on September 30, 2013, 11:16:30 am
Well... if it's not a bother i would like to give further spread questions over details of other engagements ^^
Every help it's great and is also good just providing direct link.

Now, focusing on the NB and going on by order:

NB-1, NB-6, PC-2 and PC-4 capture the German assault boat KJ-10.  On 18 March 1944.
Actually this one could be considered an interesting success because was a military unit. If i'm right she was captured while being on the shore, there was some fighting around her?
Then i know that was renamed PC-57-I Annie and was sunk according one data on 12 April 1944 (due allied friendly fire air attack), according another source on 12 September, obviously one it's wrong, which one?

NB-2 is known to have been sunk by the German motor torpedo boats S-36 and S-61 on night of 17/18 March 1944. Reading a German extract of the engagement it say that " during which a motor fishingboat was sunk by artillery. " The ship is known to have made some resistance? Sadly i've not the war diary of March 1944, because that German extract seems not much incline to report all the times their S-boats suffer some kind of damage or causalities and could have easily omitted it (i guess it's likely that the crew of NB-2 attempted to defend themselves).



NB-3 her only victory is the event reguarding the loss of the minelayer Pasman. This ship actually should/could be the largest warship (exluding armed trasports) to have be lost by partisan naval action. Luckily this time the German war diary gave some details:
On 31 December she ran aground during the fog. The crew is reported of 24 Germans and 4 Croats. The ownership of the ship is still unclear (if it was to be commissioned to Kriegsmarine, or was already part of it, or was going to be given to Ustasha), but from the war diary seems to be considered (at the time) as a german warship. The crew has been reported as probably captured the same day of the grounding.
On 6 January the torpedo boat TA-22 is planned to be dispatched to free the crew and liberate the Pasman.
On 7 January the TA-22 can't go on sea due heavy weather, same thing for 8 January.
On 9 January finally the TA-22 departs, it reports that the crew wasn't there and was probably took prisoner on 30 or 31 December. "Investigations without results", there is no report of attempts of TA-22 to salvage and tow the Pasman.
According the site navypedia it was the crew of the NB-3 herself to destroy the Pasman with charges on 13 January.

Exactly what was the activity of the NB-3? Capturing the crew of Pasman and / or  destroy her with charges days laters?

Another interesting reported success here of NB-3 (from the list of NB boats in this site) it's that:
3 June 1944 shot down an aircraft close Brac. Exactly it's known the kind of aircraft? There is confirmations by wreck found/airmen captured?



Title: Re: Question about Partizan Naval Battles during WWII
Post by: MOTORISTA on September 30, 2013, 12:49:46 pm
Are you trying to kill me? ;D

I would be more than happy if I could give an answer to all of your questions but I dont have them.


Title: Re: Question about Partizan Naval Battles during WWII
Post by: lupodimare89 on September 30, 2013, 01:52:28 pm
Quote
Are you trying to kill me? Grin
I would be more than happy if I could give an answer to all of your questions but I dont have them.
Haha!! Sorry, xD i started with the "heavy style", just i'm survived from a long ongoing experience of co-work on an international forum about naval warfare of soviet navy, there there are lots of things still unknown (basically because documents were released only after '89, and not only the soviet ones).

No problem at all however, it's for a work on an italian forum and i like making things as most clear as possible ^^


Title: Re: Question about Partizan Naval Battles during WWII
Post by: lupodimare89 on September 30, 2013, 02:19:17 pm
But don't think i gave up ; )
BTW this is also a reminder and an invitation to everyone else that has some data or knowledge to spread them among the internet public. ^^
And finally i'm here also to give some further data that i collected here and there ^^ basically german war diaries, interesting stuff surface sometimes.

And to keep on the "bombing":  (still NB)


NB-4 and  NB-5  nothing relevant left unexplained.


NB-6
Apart for the capture of KJ-10 (read NB-1) there is another interesting event:
Between 9 and 10 December 43 board and capture transport Sv.Nikola of Ustasha (30 POW and cargo captured.).
German war diary gave a full confirms: even if they say that the croat auxiliary sailing vessel was attacked by 2 boats (not one). Also it gives information that Sv.Nikola was part of Croatian Navy (so it wasn't of the armed forces)


NB-7
The loss of NB-7 has some mystery for me: i've not well understood the background of the event: an accidental collision with NB-8 on 21 April 1944 but ... it happened during an war operation?


NB-8
Not much questions, and thanks for the good link that show well that engagement with S-boats!
Just to make clear a thing however: battle was 1 / 2  June night. But the same night the S-boats destroyed that small convoy of boats (as they did the previous night) taking a number of prisoners. How could be possible that the two events occurred same night? S-boats had time to unload the prisoners and then returning on patrol? Or they fought with prisoners onboard?
The German war diary doens't give such details: actally it doesn't speak of the small convoy destroyed on night betwen 1June and 2June at all! (it speak only about the one on 31 May / 1 June) .
And as i said Germans confirms damages of 2 S-boats (not all 4), almost surely S-155 and S-156, and it's still a good result.


NB-9
Thanks the link provided above, there are full data describing the operation involving the capture of Jadro (page 8 of link about NB)
A thing left unexplained about NB-9 it's however which british destroyer rammed her.




Title: Re: Question about Partizan Naval Battles during WWII
Post by: MOTORISTA on October 01, 2013, 09:13:42 am
NB-3

When Pasman grounded on island Ist, its crew abandoned ship and bariccaded it self in a school. On the morning NB-3 lended a platoon of partizans who captured the crew of Pasman ( 24 Germans and 4 Ustashe). A few days later partizans destroyed ship with charges.

NB-6

On the night of 8/9. december 1943 NB-6 with two patrol boats of Hvar flotila, PČ-43 and PČ-45 captured ship Sv.Nikola.

NB-7

Yes, collision hapened during the war operation, a raid of 1. Dalmatian brigade on islands Hvar and Mljet.

NB-8

There was a report of KKpt. Trummer on the net, but I cant find it anymore.

NB-9

Nobody knows which RN destroyer rammed NB-9. All I know is that crew was picked up 45 minutes later from water by another RN destroyer.


Title: Re: Question about Partizan Naval Battles during WWII
Post by: lupodimare89 on October 01, 2013, 10:46:37 am
Quote
When Pasman grounded on island Ist, its crew abandoned ship and bariccaded it self in a school. On the morning NB-3 lended a platoon of partizans who captured the crew of Pasman ( 24 Germans and 4 Ustashe). A few days later partizans destroyed ship with charges.
Just to wrote the correct day, it's said clearly when it was destroyed? I suppose the date of "13/01" is wrong, if it was "few days" later, it could be interesting to understand if the TA-22 found the already destroyed wreck or did not attempted to salvage her for some other reason.

Quote
Nobody knows which RN destroyer rammed NB-9. All I know is that crew was picked up 45 minutes later from water by another RN destroyer.
I THINK that some time ago before getting interest in this theatre of war i read something with the name of the destroyer involved, will search better.

(PS: of course will wrote a big thanking to you to the italian forum i'm writing for ^^)


Title: Re: Question about Partizan Naval Battles during WWII
Post by: lupodimare89 on October 01, 2013, 02:05:06 pm
Little news from the battle of 23 octber, i got this reply from the british site:

"It does seem strange that there should have been two incidents on the same day, and two major engagements in the same area in the space of eight days. It also seems unlikely that a force of nine coastal forces craft would be involved in a single attack."

Then
 "Addendum: There does appear to be a very brief description of a skirmish on 23 October in Flag 4 by Dudley Pope in which he records the move from Vis of Lt Cmdr Morgan Giles to a new northern base of operations at Ist, using landing craft LCH 282 as his mobile headquarters, and accompanied by five boats from the 57th Flotilla who had sunk two I-boats on route, and captured a further two, which were later handed to the Partisans. This appears to have occurred on the 21st October, but Pope then goes on to record:"
Quote
Some enemy destroyers (a term loosely used to describe old destroyers, new-construction torpedo boats and corvettes) had been causing a lot of trouble among the islands. They had a brush with the LCGs and "Dog" boats on the 23rd but escaped undamaged.
Flag 4: Chapter XXXVI: Stabling The Horse: p.257 by Dudley Pope

So possibly we've found who could have met the Germans on evening, even if this British descriptions needs more details and check (it's basically a single line, sadly).



Title: Re: Question about Partizan Naval Battles during WWII
Post by: MOTORISTA on October 01, 2013, 08:44:56 pm
Quote
When Pasman grounded on island Ist, its crew abandoned ship and bariccaded it self in a school. On the morning NB-3 lended a platoon of partizans who captured the crew of Pasman ( 24 Germans and 4 Ustashe). A few days later partizans destroyed ship with charges.
Just to wrote the correct day, it's said clearly when it was destroyed? I suppose the date of "13/01" is wrong, if it was "few days" later, it could be interesting to understand if the TA-22 found the already destroyed wreck or did not attempted to salvage her for some other reason.

Well maby it was destroyed on 13th of january...so far that is the last date where it is mentioned.

Little news from the battle of 23 octber, i got this reply from the british site:

"It does seem strange that there should have been two incidents on the same day, and two major engagements in the same area in the space of eight days. It also seems unlikely that a force of nine coastal forces craft would be involved in a single attack."

Then
 "Addendum: There does appear to be a very brief description of a skirmish on 23 October in Flag 4 by Dudley Pope in which he records the move from Vis of Lt Cmdr Morgan Giles to a new northern base of operations at Ist, using landing craft LCH 282 as his mobile headquarters, and accompanied by five boats from the 57th Flotilla who had sunk two I-boats on route, and captured a further two, which were later handed to the Partisans. This appears to have occurred on the 21st October, but Pope then goes on to record:"
Quote
Some enemy destroyers (a term loosely used to describe old destroyers, new-construction torpedo boats and corvettes) had been causing a lot of trouble among the islands. They had a brush with the LCGs and "Dog" boats on the 23rd but escaped undamaged.
Flag 4: Chapter XXXVI: Stabling The Horse: p.257 by Dudley Pope

So possibly we've found who could have met the Germans on evening, even if this British descriptions needs more details and check (it's basically a single line, sadly).



Excelent!!!

Those two captured ships was German I-boots. On 24.10.1944. RN gave two captured German ships as compensation for sunk NB-9. Those German I-boots become Partizan navy PČ-7 and PČ-8.

Thank you lupo. :super :super :super


Title: Re: Question about Partizan Naval Battles during WWII
Post by: lupodimare89 on October 03, 2013, 04:53:16 pm
Will keep update if i find some other detail.
Same thing for identity of who rammed NB-9.


Last group of unresolved details for NB:


NB-10  Once again few detail over her loss. Reported captured by I-72, I-73 and I-76 on 8 February 1944.
Could be interesting know if there was a battle, some kind of resistance and the kind of damage/losses suffered on both side.
Sadly archive.org has not the document of Kriegsmarine war diary for February 1944.

NB-11  and NB-12    nothing.

NB-13. As said previously, fighting (with PC-2) on 9 October 1944 against Angelina caused 3 KIA and 9 POW among germans and partisans suffered 2 WIA (wounded were on NB-13 only?) . There are detail of size-weaponery-cargo of ship Angelina? The Angelina is reported sunk: was sunk with gunfire or captured and then destroyed?
Also the pair of partisan boats captured shortly after the  Adriana, i've read in some report defined as a yacht (or former yacht): there are detail about this other victory? (once again, enemy losses, pow, details of cargo etc...)
German war diary gives complicated data: on 10 october it reports  "During the battle of PTboats on the evening of 8 October off Maestre, the own harbor defense vessel which had been beached with battle damages and one motor coaster got lost".
But then on 13 october it reports that "On 9 October  an auxiliary sailing vessel was sunk by seven enemy gunboats in Porto Cassione (Veglia). On 10 Oct. another auxiliary sailing vessel was taken in prize by gunboats at the same place".
I guess the loss of Angelina&Adriana was the second event.


NB-14 and NB-15 nothing new.

NB Partizanka. I've not exactly understood the purpose/service of this unit. Was some kind of "command-ship"?


Title: Re: Question about Partizan Naval Battles during WWII
Post by: MOTORISTA on October 04, 2013, 09:54:57 am
I must correct my self. PČ-7 and PČ-8 was compensation for NB-13 sunk by allied planes.

NB-10

This ship was ambushed and sunk by German I-boots I-72, I-73 and I-106 in the night of 8/9.02.1944. I cant find any report on casualties on both sides.

NB-13

Angelina was grounded and later set on fire, and Adriana was captured. Both ships are mentioned as armed sailing ships with auxiliary engine.

NB Partizanka

This was a yacht before the war. After the fall of Italy she was used, mainly, for transport, and later as yacht for Partisans HQ.


Title: Re: Question about Partizan Naval Battles during WWII
Post by: lupodimare89 on October 12, 2013, 02:06:06 pm
here we are again x3
after a little break i've started to keep an eye of that German war diary and i've think that to explore the other events involving PC boats (and other unclear units) it's better following the timeline. I write in italic what i found on an old post forum (axishistory).


"  First days of October 1943
First days of october- armed ship of Brac flotilla attacked SS Rab near Makarska "

From anoter forum post, i've found:     NB-9 "Biokovac"
opened fire on which the p / b "Rab" returned the gunfire. Our coastline
battery from Sucuraj also opened fire on the p / b "Rab". However, due to
stronger weapons and more high-speed p / b "Rab" is lost in the darkness.
Question:  it's known the date of the event? Also some detail if RAB got some kind of damage? I've found nothing on German sources.


"  5  October 1943
Two patrol boats of Southdalmatian flotilla repeled 6 rubber boats and MSB from landing on Peljesac peninsula  "

(from a forum). It's known if they were PC boats? I've found nothing from German side.


"    18/19  October 1943
Patrol boats of Command of Navy for Croatian littoral and of Coastal Command for North Dalmatia attacked three times(by Ilovik, Silba and Ist) MSB Merkur that was on line Pula-Zadar  "

Once again from forum, and once again i found nothing on German side and no detail which partisan units were involved.


This one it's an interesting description from the german KTB:
"War diary: report of 20october.
At the barrage gap at Asinello an auxiliary sailing vessel had engagement vs armed auxiliary sailing vessel. Then shelled by shore near Serle lighthouse and again attacked by two auxiliary sailing vessels near Isto.
The vessel put in Pola with causalities. "

I've copied it word-by-word.
I've not exactly understood the first to mention of name locations, also i don't know if "Isto" it's a mistake for "Ist" island.
There are reports of partisan actions the night of 19/20 October or day of 20 October?


not-engagement related but confirmations from the War diary:
confirmation of loss of DEA MARCELLA (steamer) due artillery fire on 30 September 1943, further details: crew saved
confirmation of damages due coastal artillery on steamers on 26 October against ships  GOFFREDO MAMELLI and MARKO (not Marco). differently from a forum post, the German war diary gives details of heavy human losses: at first is reported on 27 October about 12 KIA and 25 WIA, then both ships are reported by Germans to have been again shelled by partisan artillery, and that MARKO returned at Pola (report of 28 October) with 14 KIA and 40 WIA.





Title: Re: Question about Partizan Naval Battles during WWII
Post by: MOTORISTA on October 13, 2013, 12:58:48 pm
"  First days of October 1943
First days of october- armed ship of Brac flotilla attacked SS Rab near Makarska "

From anoter forum post, i've found:     NB-9 "Biokovac"
opened fire on which the p / b "Rab" returned the gunfire. Our coastline
battery from Sucuraj also opened fire on the p / b "Rab". However, due to
stronger weapons and more high-speed p / b "Rab" is lost in the darkness.
Question:  it's known the date of the event? Also some detail if RAB got some kind of damage? I've found nothing on German sources.

On the 01.10.1943. SS Rab sailed from Metković to Split with 1. Croatian ( NDH) naval detachment on board. When ship was around Makarska, they spotted red flare and at that moment whole canal become  alive. In the documents they mentioned that Partisans were shooting at ship with everything, including MG and rifles from shore and islands, and that there was: "..few boats with MG on board that come close to ship..." There is no record on casulties on both sides.



Title: Re: Question about Partizan Naval Battles during WWII
Post by: MOTORISTA on October 13, 2013, 06:13:11 pm
"  5  October 1943
Two patrol boats of Southdalmatian flotilla repeled 6 rubber boats and MSB from landing on Peljesac peninsula  "

(from a forum). It's known if they were PC boats? I've found nothing from German side.

In the evening of the 05.10.1943 PČ-61, with another PČ from Pelješka flotiila, repeld attempted landing by 6 rubber boats and MSB Sv.Franjo near little port of Drače. During the fight, MSB was damaged and, according to our documents, there was 8 KIA and 5 WIA on MSB.


Title: Re: Question about Partizan Naval Battles during WWII
Post by: lupodimare89 on October 15, 2013, 10:01:36 am
Quote
"  5  October 1943
Two patrol boats of Southdalmatian flotilla repeled 6 rubber boats and MSB from landing on Peljesac peninsula  "
(from a forum). It's known if they were PC boats? I've found nothing from German side.
In the evening of the 05.10.1943 PČ-61, with another PČ from Pelješka flotiila, repeld attempted landing by 6 rubber boats and MSB Sv.Franjo near little port of Drače. During the fight, MSB was damaged and, according to our documents, there was 8 KIA and 5 WIA on MSB.
It was this event? I've also wrote that such attack against Sv.Franjo happened on November, not October, by this same forum list.
This could easily be a mistake/repetition i guess, so the correct data it's October right?


No guessing about that German report for 20 October? Or at least if such locations are actually in Croat islands.. i guess that the italianized names could have been used for some time by the Germans.


Title: Re: Question about Partizan Naval Battles during WWII
Post by: MOTORISTA on October 15, 2013, 10:05:21 am
Quote
"  5  October 1943
Two patrol boats of Southdalmatian flotilla repeled 6 rubber boats and MSB from landing on Peljesac peninsula  "
(from a forum). It's known if they were PC boats? I've found nothing from German side.
In the evening of the 05.10.1943 PČ-61, with another PČ from Pelješka flotiila, repeld attempted landing by 6 rubber boats and MSB Sv.Franjo near little port of Drače. During the fight, MSB was damaged and, according to our documents, there was 8 KIA and 5 WIA on MSB.
It was this event? I've also wrote that such attack against Sv.Franjo happened on November, not October, by this same forum list.
This could easily be a mistake/repetition i guess, so the correct data it's October right?

That is right. There is no mentioning what hapened later. I can only assume that Sv.Franjo managed to escape from PČs and was attacked again in november in some other action.


Title: Re: Question about Partizan Naval Battles during WWII
Post by: lupodimare89 on October 15, 2013, 08:34:37 pm
Wait but... here  https://www.paluba.info/smf/index.php/topic,1216.0.html
you wrote of November, not October...
Quote
U sastavu Korčulanske flotile V POS.Noću 5/6.11.1943.pred ušćem Neretve,napao mitraljeskom vatrom i ručnim bombama motorni jedrenjak Sv.Franjo,na kojem je ubijeno 8,a ranjeno 5 članova posade.Potopljen od nemačkih aviona 27.12.1943. kod Hvara.
In the end... the battle that caused 8kia and 5wia was on November so?
Still a bit confused, sorry v.v


Title: Re: Question about Partizan Naval Battles during WWII
Post by: MOTORISTA on October 21, 2013, 01:58:56 pm
Wait but... here  https://www.paluba.info/smf/index.php/topic,1216.0.html
you wrote of November, not October...
Quote
U sastavu Korčulanske flotile V POS.Noću 5/6.11.1943.pred ušćem Neretve,napao mitraljeskom vatrom i ručnim bombama motorni jedrenjak Sv.Franjo,na kojem je ubijeno 8,a ranjeno 5 članova posade.Potopljen od nemačkih aviona 27.12.1943. kod Hvara.
In the end... the battle that caused 8kia and 5wia was on November so?
Still a bit confused, sorry v.v

Crap...

I cant help you with this. Actually I cant help to my self about this becouse those two dates are in different documents regarding same ships PČ-61 and Sv.Franjo.


Title: Re: Question about Partizan Naval Battles during WWII
Post by: lupodimare89 on October 22, 2013, 02:38:30 pm
No problem, here what we can do:

If the two sources are two books, you could check who's the older book. And maybe if the modern one used the older as reference (making a mistake).

Also could help a little work of checking the whole background,  we know location is Peljesac. Germans departed from Metkovic. Location should be in "front of Drace harbor".
Should be surely some book or source even online that could tell if Germans had landed and took that place for early October or early November.
After all during such offensive the Germans repelled the partisans from almost all the islands. I will get back on the German KTB to see if it mentions at least landing operation there for October and November, hoping to solve this little mystery.


Title: Re: Question about Partizan Naval Battles during WWII
Post by: lupodimare89 on November 03, 2013, 04:10:26 pm
Sorry for the break.

Here what i've collected for November 1943:

 "  4.november-2 patrol boats attacked MSB Marija and MSB Naprijed in Hvar`s channel that sailed from Metkovic to Split   "
(from forum)
Being on patrol at night line 3 / 4. NB-9 November "Biokovac" south
from Makarska clashed with enemy sailing ship to sail the
Makarska. On the enemy ship opened fire from all weapons. After
short and fierce battles enemy ship was lost in the darkness. NB-9 "Biokovac"
was damaged by the hits on the superstructure and decking, CTS slightly wounded commander.
According to German data, the enemy ship was wounded six moranara
 and one officer. Upon entering the holes in the lining Drasnice shut the crew
marine resources.

(can't remember this source, maybe this same forum).
So basically this engagement was between NB-9 Biokovac  vs MSB Marija and Naprijed.
But from the second description (not 100% clear to me) seems that it was only the partisan boat that took causalties (1 to 6 WIA)
It's however confirmed it was NB-9 involved? and who was the other unit?


5/6 november- in front of Drace harbour PC-61 Udar  after serious battle that included close combat and use of hand granates, forced to retreat MSB Sv.Franjo that transported German troops from Metkovic to Peljesac, German losses were 8 KIA,5 WIA.
Already seen before issue with this engagement that seems have a "twin" one on October, possibly due some mistake on date it's correct or October or November.


11.november- in Srednji channel patrol boats PC-21 Miran and PC-22 Streljko damaged MSB armed with MGs and mortar
Other source:
"...returned to Podgora
 and continued patrolling. In the Neretva Channel, he met with the two hostile
motor sailing vessel with which he led battle. However, enemy ships
were stronger and they could not capture, and with it has already begun to dawn, and NB-9
»Biokovac" sailed in Gradac one wounded sailors. "
Once again it's not clear if the enemy suffered damage&causalities, while partisans suffered 1 WIA



13.november- in air attack damaged patrol boat Partizan 3 and tuna-ship, both were later captured by assault boat and cruiser Niobe,Losinj channel
The official German KTB gives the success at "Cattaro" and torpedo boat "TA-21", saying they "captured several auxiliary sailing vessels that were trying to fled",   among prisoners were also 8 British.



28 November 1943
A not seen event on online source.
The German KTB officially claim that during the nigth the motor torpedo boat S-61 captured and blew up an "auxiliary sailing vessel" 20 miles west of Zara.
No cargo, was sailing to souht.
I guess could have been some supporting boat, or even a civilian one not involved in fight.



Title: Re: Question about Partizan Naval Battles during WWII
Post by: lupodimare89 on December 10, 2013, 02:33:20 pm
Hello back! After some delays due study i've attempted to find some explains for the PC-61 attack against Sv.Franjo (if it happened on October or November).
Reading the German KTB it's reports operations at Split for October, while in November there were operations at Dubrovnik (that's southern and more closer to Peljesac). I've failed to find reports of direct operations at Peljesac but considering the position (and that direct landing were reported at Dubrovnik in November), i GUESS it's more probable that the clash between PC-61 against Sv.Franjo occurred on 5/6 November (and not 5/6 October).

Moreover the German KTB say clearly that the convoy of 2 Siebel armed ferries and 7 I-boats sailing to Dubrovnik was shelled from the closer Mljet island on the November operation, with one Siebel that was damaged by splinters.

Another confirmation came from the 4 November entry: mopping up operations are reported in Peljesac



-----


Some other events in December 1943

German KTB war  diary: page 126 december 1943:   "1 croatian officer escaped report of cutter captured on voyage during night of 2 December."
 http://archive.org/stream/wardiarygermann521943germ#page/126/mode/2up
Supply cutter was on his way from Zara to Sibenic
it's left unclear how and by who the cutter was captured (ground forces? or some naval action?)
The closest thing i've found was an entry on the axishistory forum that said:
"2.december-in Vinisce near Trogir partisans destroyed stranded German boat AZ 3 "


8.december- from Pag island and Prizma SS Istok attacked with small arms fire
This is the entry on axishistory forum, but according the same German KTB:
"supply ship Isto strafed by machine-gun fire."
The ship was reached by the partisan fire, not just attacked.


8/9 December
Already seen capture of MSB Jadro by partisan boats  NB- Biokovac and PC-54 Turist






Title: Re: Question about Partizan Naval Battles during WWII
Post by: lupodimare89 on April 08, 2014, 06:04:06 pm
Hello, sorry for the long delay due study..

Someone is up to keep on this discussion? I've managed to take a look on other German KTBs


Title: Re: Question about Partizan Naval Battles during WWII
Post by: lupodimare89 on August 12, 2015, 07:51:11 am
Hello! It's a long time I've visited the forum last...

Someone who read these pages (or have info and data about the questions left open) can give an help about the most mysterious stuff?


Title: Re: Question about Partizan Naval Battles during WWII
Post by: lupodimare89 on July 21, 2019, 04:44:59 pm
After some talks with Motorista on PM, i think it can be useful to share some extra data gathered. There are a number of potentially interesting clashes and skirmishes involving Partisans vs occupation forces that have been poorly described on usual open sources internet and apparently not particularly explored either in local sources. I would like to start with an attempted list of all enemy crafts/boats either sunk or seized by Partisan boats in actions.

The actions involve also seizures by parties from Partisan boats, landed on shore.  

List by order of importance/size.

Sorry in advance by possible typo mistakes. Comments/questions/corrections/opinions are welcome!

----------------

Military/armed targets:  10 sinking/seizures.

27/Apr/44 Anti-partisan ship Anton ; by PC-2 Skampo and PC-4 Junak (Seizure - disembarked sailors). Note: become NB-11 Crvena zvijezda.

31/Dec/43 Minelayer Pasman; by NB-3 Jadran (Scuttled - disembarked sailors). Note: most prominent warship by rating/importance on transfer to Croatian Navy. Actual scuttling on 5 January. 24 Germans and 4 Croats POWs.

20/Dec/43 Armed boat HZ-8; by PC-53 Zora (Seizure). Note: action also involved small boats, PC-41 Napredak, PC-42 and PC-43 Napred; Partisan artillery and British MTB -649 motor torpedo boat. Boat become NB-1 Krava.

20/Dec/43 Armed boat HZ-9; by PC-53 Zora (Seizure). Note: action also involved small boats, PC-41 Napredak, PC-42 and PC-43 Napred; Partisan artillery and British MTB -649 motor torpedo boat. Boat become NB-2 Koca.

18/Mar/44 Assault boat KJ-10; by NB-1 Krava and NB-6 Napredak (Seizure). Note: become PC-75-I Annie with unclear fate, possibly sunk on 12/April/44 by friendly fire air attack

24/Jan/44 Tug Costante; by PC-1 Jadran and PC-3 Skampo (Scuttled). Note: tug grounded. Crew captured.

18/Dec/43 Landing craft SF-193; by PC-1 Jadran and PC-3 Skampo (Scuttled/destroyed). Note: shared success, forced to ground by British MTB-637. Partisans attacked from ground. Germans suffered 6 KIA, 11 MIA, 29 rescued. Craft destroyed and cargo lost (24tons of fuel, 800 lifejackets). De-facto second largest officially designed warship sunk by action of Partisan Navy, after Pasman.

24/Dec/43 Unidentified landing craft; by PC-64 Neutralni (Sunk). Note: German KTB indicate two landing boats lost during lading in Korcula Island. So-far only scant details over the whole incidient.

27/Dec/44 Unidentified assault boat; by PC-24 Marjan (Sunk). Note: scarce details.

17/Dec/44 Unidentified "Linse" assault craft; by transport "Lahor" (Seizure). Note: unclear incident. 1 German died on unclear circumstance (shot by partisan or killed by other German officer)



Transport/Supply boats: 25 sinking/seizures

8/Dec/43 Croat boat "Jadro"; by NB-9 Biokovac (Seizure). Note: cargo of 90tons of food. 31 POW.

9/Dec/43 Croat boat "Sv. Nikola"; by NB-6 Napredak (Seizure). Note: cargo:?

9/Oct/44 Aux.boat "Angelina"; NB-13 Partizan and  PC-2 Makola (Sunk). Note: armed boat sunk in gunnery battle. 3 KIA, 9 POW. NB-13 had 2 WIA.

9/Oct/44 Aux.boat "Adriana"; NB-13 Partizan and  PC-2 Makola (Seizure). Note: captured after sinking of "Angelina".

27/Feb/44 Transport boat "Haraelis"; by PC-2 Makola and PC-3 Skampo (Seizure). Note: alongside "Maria Jose" carried troops (120 POW). Note: according a German source she was possibly named "Zara-1" and on tow of Maria Jose. Casualties list also reported as 12 KIA, 24 WIA (captured), and other 95 POWs.

27/Feb/44 Transport boat "Maria Jose"; by PC-2 Makola and PC-3 Skampo (Seizure). Note: alongside "Haraelis" carried troops (120 POW). Note:  according a German source, she was possibly named "Maria Rose". Casualties list also reported as 12 KIA, 24 WIA (captured), and other 95 POWs.

29/Jul/44 boat "Felice"; by PC-2 Makola and PC-4 Junak (Seizure)

28/Feb/44 boat "Giuseppe Cesario", by PC-22 Streljko (Seizure)

6/Apr/44 boat "San Antonio", by PC-21 Marjan and PC-22 Streljko (Seizure)

22/Apr/44 boat "Giuliana", by PC-21 Marjan and PC-22 Streljko (Seizure)

22/Apr/44 boat "Emilia", by PC-21 Marjan and PC-22 Streljko (Seizure)

(Note: following victims occurred before 8 September 1943, during Italian occupation):

1/Jan/43 boat "Europa", by unidentified patrol boat (Seizure). Note: become Partisan patrol boat "Partizan" lost by Italian seaplane on February

22/Jan/43 boat "Giuditta", by unidentified patrol boat (Scuttled)

22/Mar/43 boat "Maria Luisa", by unidentified patrol boat (Scuttled). Note: attacked alongside "Renato".

22/Mar/43 boat "Renato", by unidentified patrol boat (Scuttled). Note: attacked alongside "Maria Luisa".

14/Apr/43 boat "Africano", by unidentified patrol boat (Seizure)

21/Jul/43 unidentified boat, by unidentified patrol boat (Seizure)

23/May/42 boat "Mira", by unidentified fishing boat (Seizure)

11/Aug/42 boat "Dux", by unidentified fishing boat (Seizure)

18/Nov/42 unidentified boat, by unidentified fishing boat (Seizure)

31/Dec/42 boat "Istok", by two unidentified fishing boats (Seizure). Note: possibly the multiple successes of 31/Dec/42 scored by boat "Pionir"?)

31/Dec/42 boat "Madre Giovanna", by two unidentified fishing boats (Seizure)

31/Dec/42 boat "Otac Vladimir", by two unidentified fishing boats (Seizure)

31/Dec/42 boat "Zdravlje", by two unidentified fishing boats (Seizure)

31/Dec/42 boat "Sveti Ante", by two unidentified fishing boats (Seizure)








Title: Re: Question about Partizan Naval Battles during WWII
Post by: Perun on July 21, 2019, 05:24:03 pm
Mozda ovo koristi:

[attachment=1]

Imama par dobrih knjiga na tu temu ali nisam doma. Kad se vratim pogledat cu pa mozda bude od neke koristi


Title: Re: Question about Partizan Naval Battles during WWII
Post by: lupodimare89 on July 22, 2019, 10:24:22 am
Thank you very much for the contribution! From the text it appears clear that the "first" Fleet (late 1942 - fall 1943) included three boats and not two ("Pionir", "Partizan" and "Proletar"). Origin of "Proletar" are not much clear, i suspect could be the boat "Giuditta" captured on 22 January 1943 but maybe it was something else.

Also from the file it is clear how it was "Pionir" responsable for the multiple seizures occurred on 31 December 1942, and the single seizure of 1 January 1943 (boat "Europa", become "Partizan").


Title: Re: Question about Partizan Naval Battles during WWII
Post by: lupodimare89 on May 30, 2020, 09:43:32 am
I guess it's better writing here, hoping to find people knowing more of the subject. Recently i came across some interesting lines of text concerning the passage of ships and boats from the exiled Yugoslavian Royal Navy to the Partisan Yugoslavian Navy. While most ships were transfered around August 1945 (so after the end of hostilities) one detail it's this:

Quote
On 7 March 1945, the king dissolved the government and disbanded the armed forces, proclaiming Tito's Partisans on the ground to be the sole legitimate government and military. In March 1945, all Royal Yugoslav vessels assembled at Ancona in preparation for the handover to Tito's forces, which occurred in August.
So... first of all the Royal Navy was nominally dissolved at that date, while this probably left the ships in a sort-of "limbo", there is a couple of war episodes happend AFTER this date.

Quote
In mid-March 1945 2nd squad received orders to return from Livorno to Malta. Previously, the British decided that all eight ships cede RM NLA. Crews were given the choice - or to voluntarily join the NLA and return to Yugoslavia, or to accept exile. After the royalists abandoned ships, 4 Higgins and yacht "White Eagle", renamed "mountain" under the new Yugoslav flags were sent to Ancona, with a mission to combat cooperation in operations liberation of the Dalmatian coast. During April, the remaining 4 ships joining battalion in Ancona for the first time actively cooperate with the partisan forces during the attack on the island of Rab and Krk. Meanwhile, members of the unit who had remained loyal to the royal crown, were transferred from Malta to Alexandria, where they are discharged from active service.

These lines seems to indicate that Indeed the "Beli Orao" support ship and four (later all) of the "Higgins" PT-201,204,207, 208, 209, 211, 213 and 217 indeed OPERATED for the Partisan Navy since April 1945!   First questions: it is known exactly which crafts first joined in March and which during April?
There are known details of the Higgins operations in April around Rab and Krk islands?

I may guess the crafts retained the old American names, rather than having already the "MTP-1 to MTP-8" official early Yugoslavian naming, likely assigned only in August 1945

Personally i think to have found a single surface action that involved these crafts:
(German text 1)
- 17./18.04.1945 Angriff des brit. MTB 409 auf einen Verband mit 3 MFP und 5 Leichtern bei Umago (südl. Triest.). Ein MFP wird mit Torpedos versenkt. Einen 2. Anlauf unternehmen 2 jugosl. MGB 217 und 207, letzteres wird durch Abwehrfeuer des Gegners beschädigt (1 Toter). Der Angriff wird daraufhin abgebrochen.[2]
(German text 2):
16./17.04.1945 Britisches MTB 409 (zusammen mit den jugosl. Booten PC 217 und 207) torpediert bei Umago (Istrien) einen Verband von 3 MFP und 5 Leichtern, und versenkt 1 MFP. In einem 2. Anlauf liefern sich die jugoslawischen Boote ein Gefecht mit den MFP. Auf PC 207 Treffer und Verwundete, woraufhin sich die jugosl. Boote zurückziehen.[2]

Contrary to the British claim, no German MFP is so-far reported sunk or damaged in action. The overhall actions seems a British-Yugoslavian failure, even if obviously it was just a minor skirmish, even if costed the life of 1 seaman.

I have found a further British description of the event that seems however contraddictory!
Quote
Back in action, Holloway distinguished himself when on 16 April 1945, as flotilla commanding officer of the 28th in HM MTB 409, he attacked a convoy of German E-boats ("Enemy war motor boats") and barges, sinking one of them. He had to take special care since he had under his command two Royal Yugoslav Navy motor gunboats and was under orders not to let their crews be captured by their opponents, the partisans of Marshal Tito. The MTBs worked with both these factions, Tito's men often serving as ship's pilots. In the same week, on 11 April, Holloway had been one of the skippers, in three MTBs under Charles Jerram, who sank five heavily armoured Flak lighters (cargo and troop-carriers with anti-aircraft guns) with six torpedoes, each MTB having only two.

I suspect this line of text came out after some subsequent Cold-War era writing: the line is questionable because de-facto the Yugoslavian Royal Navy was no more, and the British (and the King) seems to endorse the transfer. Moreover the text include abundant over-claim that cannot be fully proved.

 


Title: Re: Question about Partizan Naval Battles during WWII
Post by: lupodimare89 on July 04, 2020, 10:07:58 pm
Again sorry for my new message in english-only, but i think to have found traces of an incident that i would like to understand better.

Quote
Br. 207. 10. V. At our headquarters found P.O.S. lazi se kap. Lorimer with 4 soldiers and 2 radio stations, Major Braumont Onesbitt with one lieutenant and one frigate lieutenant, Capt. Ramsay, one amer. lieutenant with one Yugoslav non-commissioned officer, amer. Lieutenant Rourke with 3 Yugoslavs. All of these except Lorimer and their group are returning to Vis tonight. Today received over r. stations from Krk notice that the 6th V is our strike group on Krk. in Omišalj, sank the steamship Plav. 392 of the Legionary Division, No. 39 14, k. 18 in the Archives of the Historical Institute of the JNA.)
Also in Italian
Quote
Le navi armate della Marina partigia-na conseguirono un successo la sera del 6 maggio mandando a fondo il pi-roscafo Albona a Omisalj (Veglia).

The big issue/point of interest it's which Partisan crafts NB/PC engaged the boat (or ship? from description seems indeed a relatively bigger steamship) "Albona".
Or maybe it was an attack committed by ground forces with artillery rom the island? I found no possible connection with the old list of Jugoslavian actions i had on 6 May 1944.


Title: Re: Question about Partizan Naval Battles during WWII
Post by: Perun on July 05, 2020, 06:26:05 am
Za Plav:

Opis:
U luci Omišalj (na o. Krku) udarna grupa 1. udarne brigade 13. divizije NOVJ potopila nemački parobrod -Plav- a posadu zarobila.
Datum: 6. 5. 1944. (napomena: neki datumi su okvirni)
Oblast: Dalmacija
Izvor: Hronologija narodnooslobodilačkog rata 1941-1945
URL: http://znaci.net/00001/53.htm
Oznake: Omiš ★ Krk ★ Borbe na Jadranu 1944. ★ Borbe u Hrvatskoj 1944. ★

http://znaci.net/arhiv/dogadjaj/1833


Title: Re: Question about Partizan Naval Battles during WWII
Post by: lupodimare89 on July 05, 2020, 09:23:06 am
Thank you very much Perun! So it was clearly an assault by ground forces and not a naval engagements.
I didn't know that site! I will eventually explore it more, in search of other naval events


Title: Re: Question about Partizan Naval Battles during WWII
Post by: Perun on July 05, 2020, 10:12:23 am
No problem mate


Title: Re: Question about Partizan Naval Battles during WWII
Post by: lupodimare89 on December 28, 2020, 01:03:45 pm
Greetings, i am in the process (thanks these winter holidays) to finish the reading of all the Partisan Adriatic sea naval documents, and i've found plenty of interesting information, both extra details and descriptions of the main naval clashes (casualties, damages, cargo seized etc) both some fixes and corrections and different data reported from some of the few Serbian/Croatian sources that write about Partisan boats during WW2.

I would like to find some other interested users to make a confrontation in english, or simply write here maybe?


Also i quite troubled to find absolutely little data concerning the partisan riverine activities on Danube river from November 1944 to the end of the War. I've found multiple references of the existances of naval formations, but no data on exact boats/crafts used, captured etc.



I have found Partisan documents of Srem (1945) and the whole period of fall 1944 in Vojvodini/Novi Sad region, but it's quite lots of stuff and would like to single-out riverine activities!


Title: Re: Question about Partizan Naval Battles during WWII
Post by: lupodimare89 on January 23, 2021, 02:00:48 pm
Well, i finished reading the files. and I've gathered a big amount of data and information that differentiate from usual descriptions. Here the full list of differences/changes from other pages i found (I've also to say that all the captures and fights of known boats are very well detailed and described!).

...................
 
I've completed the reading of the three pdf files i received and while tons of different encounters, seizure and skirmishes receive extra information and details, there are some data that fix or variate from the ones commonly found online or in literature: here a "brief" list.
-------------------------------

Interestingly, i remember few years ago an user who was interested in Italian NAP armed vessels activity, and something surfaced on this.

Some comfirmed Italian victories on partisans: 2 boats (likely ex-fishing boats) shelled and sunk on 6/Jan/43 by T-5 torpedo boat and small minelayers Ugliano and Pasman. Sinking of partisan-controlled transport boat "Padre Felice" by small minelayer Ugliano on 22/Jan/43

Loss of Italian transport boat "Antonietta B." by partisans on a fishing boat on 25/Feb/43

Loss of partisan transport boat "Maria" by Italian armed vessel NAP-2 on 20/Mar/43

Surrender of the partisan boat "Mia Sant'Anna" on 20/Mar/43

Loss of partisan armed launch "Partizan" by Italian armed vessels NAP-24 and MB-9 on 1/May/43: NOTE some sources wrongly indicate the loss on 1944!! But docuents clearly indicate the more reasonable 1943 year.

Capture of a boat by partisan navy on 21/Jul/43 MAYBE related to loss of Ustasha tug "Rudnik".

Capture of a Chetnik-controlled small tanker on 27/Sept/43 by transport boats "Lev" and "Makarska" possibly ex-Italian Emilia.

Italian torpedo boat Missori  capturing a partisan boat on 6/Oct/43 put in doubt, the torpedo boat was actually in a very confused situation due Italy armistice.

PC-21 and PC-22 claim of damaged enemy boat on 11/Nov/43 also seems uncomfirmed.

Loss of "Jela" transport boat off Bari by mine from U-453 on 20/Nov/43: she was actually a Partisan-controlled ship, not exile Royalist.

Starting from November 1943, some German S-boats claims on Partisan boats should be put in doubt: in many case there is no evidence on Partisan documents and it's possible they attacked simply civilian fishing boats or local transports or smugglers unrelated to Partisans. At the same time, at least two incidents of Partisan boats claiming damage on enemy steamers in 1943 likely caused no effect.

Loss of Siebel craft SF-193 on 17/18 December 1943, usually just claimed to MTB-637, but actually crew of PC-2 Macola also contributed and captured the crew: interestingly the Partisan documents indicate the craft as a "Maona" motor barge, and indicate she was recovered and used! However the document seems to not give her great importance, possibly she was not recognized as a military vessel or was simply stripped off weapons and used as a transport barge.

Loss of PC-67 Kerc fully confirmed by Partisan documents, on 27/Dec/43 by air raids alongside other boats.

Loss of PC-60-II Vjekoslava fully confirmed by Partisan documents on 28/Dec/43 by air raid

Claim of capture of enemy boat by unidentified Partisan boats on 8/Jan/44 likely wrong and related to recovery of a small boat used by spies

Loss of transport "Marjia" by German S-36 and S-55 on 9/Jan/44 first confirmed transport boat lost by German surface raid: a similar ship reportedly lost in 1945 was likely a mistake.

The claim of German assault boats on two Partisan transports on 16/Jan/44 fully confirmed: they sunk "Sretan-II" and "Dobaroctar" a similar claim three days later have no Partisan confirmed loss (maybe civilian fishing boats).

On 25/Jan/44, PC-1 and PC-3 destroyed tug "Costante" (not "Constante" as wrongly named in Partisan documents).

Loss of PC-66 Proletar was actually a separate incident from loss NB-10 Sloga: six days earlier.

On 28/Feb/43 PC-22 destroyed boat "Giuseppe Cesira" (not "Giuseppe Cesario" as reported sometimes), interestingly American telegraphists transported onboat the patrol boat took active part in the capture.

Loss of PC-59 Lapad definitely caused by friendly fire from MTB-649 on 6/March/44

Loss of "PC-5" a commonly "missed" patrol boat from many lists, occurred on 23/March/44, often ignored because differently from other low-number (PC-1 to PC-6) she was extremely small and armed with 1 machinegun

Loss of PC-75 Annie (Ex-KJ-10) on 12 April 1944 by allied friendly-fire air attack is completely wrong. Partisan documents fully confirm her loss in September.
 
On 31/May/44, the small PC-76 "MC-22" was most likely destroyed by the German ground forces fire, rather than being captured (or heavily damage but likely not recovered).

 It was the defected Ustasha boat PT-79 on 22/Aug/44 that become partisan PC-79 (keeping same number), not a subsequent boat.

There is still some confusion for the losses on 29/Aug/44: original partisan documents at first indicate the loss of PC-45 Batos while PC-47 Sv.Nikola-I survived with damage, after enemy mortar fire. Later report switch the fate of the two boats (with PC-47 reported as lost): clearly there was a mistake in one of the two reports.

Loss of a (reportedly) partisan small boat with mail by two I-boats on 1/Sept/44 was possibly a small local craft used by some agents.

The seizure in harbor on 11/Sept/43 of a 6-meters motorboat by Partisan patrol boats not classified as a victory by the same partisan documents (likely because of her small size, no enemy onboard etc.)

Loss of PC-75 fully confirmed by partisans on 12/Sept/43

Loss of NB-13 Partizan occurred on 21/Oct/44, not 20 November.

Extra info of the clash occurred on 28/Dec/44 between PC-24 and motorboats in Sv.Peter harbor. According own German data actually one motorboat exploded and another suffered heavy damage. But there are no detailed accounts on the fight.

An interesting German assault with "Linse" explosive crafts against Split ended in a failure on 12 February 1945. Scarce details of human losses, but at least 3 explosive crafts hit by Allies and harbor defense.

Losses or damage to the small patrol boats PC-55 Partizan-II and PC-27-II Andjeljko respectively on 15/Feb/45 and 24/Feb/45 remain unconfirmed. No such data on Partisan documents.

A clash between BB-4 Topcider and patrol boat PC-24 Marjan versus German sturmboots type42 on 5/April/45, previously undescribed by many sources. 1 partisan killed, unclear effects on German side.

Contrary to many sources, describing all main ex-Royalist units joining the Navy only in August 1945, Partisan documents clearly describe corvette "Nada" performing a single escort mission in April 1945 escorting LCT from Vis Island to Sibenik. While she was clearly still in a burocratic "Limbo" some kind of coordination with the newly named (1 March) Yugoslavian Navy seems likely.

One known episode with Yugoslavian-manned "Higgins" boats on 17/18 April 1945 against German MFP convoy: still manned by nominally royalists despite the exiled Navy being disbanded and on verge to be absorbed by the neew Yugoslavian Navy. Actual fight was unsucessful (1 KIA and damage to one boat). Differently from the "Nada" mission, the two Higgins operated in close connection with Briths MTB, so seems likely they were under their strict control.

A MFP (F-971) sunk in Trieste harbor by mortar fire from partisans on 1/May/45

The very last surface skirmish occurred on 5/May/45 close Pola. NB-14 chased an unidentified German boat attempting to evacuate trapped troops.

One final Yugoslavian Navy victory occurred on 6/May/45 when PC-1 Jadran intercepted and captured the motorboat Remo (cargo of flour) attemtping to escape Trieste to west. Usually not recorded as a victory because the end of the war, she was fully regarded as a prize by the local command.


Title: Re: Question about Partizan Naval Battles during WWII
Post by: kilezr on January 25, 2021, 05:53:03 pm


  In the book Navy NOVOJ( Mornarica NOVOJ )  you have detailed actions that interest you. The author is Jovan Vasiljevic


Title: Re: Question about Partizan Naval Battles during WWII
Post by: lupodimare89 on February 03, 2021, 09:10:36 pm
  In the book Navy NOVOJ( Mornarica NOVOJ )  you have detailed actions that interest you. The author is Jovan Vasiljevic

Greetings! While the book could be surely interesting to me (i've already seen some samples before with very nice photos), sadly i cannot read paper books in original language. Personally I prefer to check and read the original documents/reports when available: but could be very interesting to see there is some reader who noticed extra details or fix for some of the most poorly described episodes. ^^

Also technically i am in the process to keep reading the Ultra DEFE files for the Mediterranean, and these were not surely available by the time the book was published. Especially for the light German landing crafts, some info surfaced only in the last twenty years and other data are still missing.


Prijatelji

▼▼▼▼

Prostor za Vaš baner

kontakt: brok@paluba.info