PALUBA

English Language Discussion => NAVY => Topic started by: Dili on September 02, 2009, 07:15:05 pm



Title: Royal Yugoslav navy destroyers
Post by: Dili on September 02, 2009, 07:15:05 pm
[attachment=1]


83.5mm via jopaerya (axisforum) Ceskoslovenske Delostrelectvo from J.Janousek


Title: Re: Royal Yugoslav navy destroyers
Post by: MOTORISTA on September 02, 2009, 07:21:32 pm
This is a Vz22/24, our destroyer Dubrovnik had one instaled.


Title: Re: Royal Yugoslav navy destroyers
Post by: Dili on September 02, 2009, 07:27:03 pm
Yep that is why i posted.  :)


Title: Re: Royal Yugoslav navy destroyers
Post by: Dreadnought on September 02, 2009, 07:30:39 pm
A several more foto of Dubrovnik's Vz22/24

[attachment=1]

[attachment=2]

[attachment=3]

 ;)


Title: Re: Royal Yugoslav navy destroyers
Post by: Dili on September 02, 2009, 07:36:13 pm
Excellent  ;D .  Do you have any good photo about the misterious 40mm in Dubrovnik, Beograd Class, i have seen they refered to Skoda 40 L67  while other says 40mm Bofors?


Title: Re: Royal Yugoslav navy destroyers
Post by: MOTORISTA on September 02, 2009, 08:02:57 pm
AA Guns on our ships were 40 mm Bofors

here are some photos of Bofors guns from ORP Blyskawica



Title: Re: Royal Yugoslav navy destroyers
Post by: Dreadnought on September 02, 2009, 08:03:43 pm
Here are twin 40 mm AA guns from destroyer "Zagreb" (destroyer class Beograd) ... As I know, guns were Bofors made ....

[attachment=1]


Title: Re: Royal Yugoslav navy destroyers
Post by: Dili on September 02, 2009, 08:13:24 pm
But Bofors only started to be produced in 1936  and Dubrovnik was commissioned in 1932.

 "Official trials for the Swedish Navy took place on 21 March 1932.  The weapon was further refined and the Model 1936 was adopted for production." http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_4cm-56_mk12.htm

Check the photo of Dubrovnik that you posted in page 5 of this thread. The double guns mounts  between funnels don't appear to have a Bofors tube.


Title: Re: Royal Yugoslav navy destroyers
Post by: MOTORISTA on September 02, 2009, 08:20:29 pm
Dubrovnik was rearmed with them when Belgrade class destroyers was finished ( they also had Bofors AA guns)


Title: Re: Royal Yugoslav navy destroyers
Post by: Dili on September 02, 2009, 08:28:16 pm
Thanks. So what was the gun in Dubrovnik picture that dreadnought posted in thread 5?


Title: Re: Royal Yugoslav navy destroyers
Post by: MOTORISTA on September 02, 2009, 08:48:20 pm
Uffff...now you got me. I`ll have to look in some books... :)


Title: Re: Royal Yugoslav navy destroyers
Post by: Dili on September 02, 2009, 09:05:39 pm
We are rediscovering history  ;D . Thanks.


Title: Re: Royal Yugoslav navy destroyers
Post by: jadran2 on September 02, 2009, 09:16:47 pm
Hello Dili, welcome aboard "Paluba"!

The twin gun clearly visible (when enlarged) on several aerial photos of destroyer "Dubrovnik" - Sep. 1934. posted by Dreadnought on p. 5 (taken in port of Split) is for sure the same one that you have posted today.

- twin 84 mm /or 2-3"4 (55) AA/

Should be no doubt abt it.



Title: Re: Royal Yugoslav navy destroyers
Post by: Dreadnought on September 02, 2009, 09:18:32 pm
Dubrovnik before rearming with 40mm AA bofors guns, had 6 x 37mm AA guns ...

Two 37 mm AA double (twin) guns mounted between funnels
[attachment=1]

and two single 37 mm AA guns on the each side of the ship
[attachment=2]





Title: Re: Royal Yugoslav navy destroyers
Post by: Dili on September 02, 2009, 09:56:02 pm
Thanks Dreadnought. Do you know what was the name of that 37mm Gun?  The only thing i have seen is Skoda 4cm/67? (Many Skoda weapons have the calibre number shortened or augmented to the decimal value so 4cm might mean 37mm.)

Thanks jadran2.

I think that Drubovnik gun appears to be this gun:


Title: Re: Royal Yugoslav navy destroyers
Post by: MOTORISTA on September 03, 2009, 02:10:26 pm
Do you have any information about this gun on your photo? As far as I knew, Škoda manufactured only 37 mm guns, not a single 40 mm. Also, look at the breech mechanism, it is definetly a semi automatic loading guns. Is it possible that this guns were AT veapons adapted for AA role?


Title: Re: Royal Yugoslav navy destroyers
Post by: Dili on September 03, 2009, 02:31:19 pm
Unfortunately i don't. I think this picture shows a Skoda gun (for example the black seats of this gun are very similar - with front cut- to the 83.5 double i posted) and i think it is possible this is the 37mm(4cm) that was placed in Dubrovnik. They seem very similar.
In the scene of this gun with german official , i thought if it isn't possible that the ship is the Minelayer Zmaj(later Drache) that might have got the guns taken from Dubrovnik - i have seen Zmaj refered with either 2 or 4 40mm(which might mean 37mm). I know this speculation over speculation... a good photo of Zmaj might show if i am only wishfull thinking.


Title: Re: Royal Yugoslav navy destroyers
Post by: MOTORISTA on September 03, 2009, 02:47:17 pm
Zmaj was a seaplane tender, and it has 2x2x40 mm guns


Title: Re: Royal Yugoslav navy destroyers
Post by: jadran2 on September 03, 2009, 02:51:13 pm
Dread, you are our "Naval Intelligence, you can trace any magnify every smallest details. Great!
_____



Could this be of any assistance (info from "German Navy.de)
---------------------------

[attachment=1]


Laid down as Yugoslavian tender Zmaj.



Contruction Data
Laid down:     Deutsche Werft AG Hamburg, 1929
Launched:     22.06.1929
Commissioned:     1930 (1941 in German services)
Fate:     exploded 22.09.1944
Costs:      

Technical Data
Size:     1870 t
Length:     76,50 m
Beam:     13,70 m
Draft:     4,00 m
Armament:     2 x 8,8 cm; 5 x 3,7 cm; 13 x 2 cm; 120 Mines (all 1944)
Performance:     3260 shp, 15 kn

History
The Yugoslavian tender Zmaj was build in Germany in 1929. It was captured by German troops in Split on 17.04.1941. First
commissioned as aircraft recovery vessel Drache in 1941. After being used as troop transport later that year, the ship was modified into a minelayer and put into service in November 1942. In January and February 1943 it was equipped with an on-board helicopter.
On 22.09.1944 it was attacked by allied aircraft at Samos and exploded 2 hours after the attack.
 


Title: Re: Royal Yugoslav navy destroyers
Post by: jadran2 on September 03, 2009, 02:52:53 pm
above info as from 1943 position.


Title: Re: Royal Yugoslav navy destroyers
Post by: Dili on September 03, 2009, 03:36:38 pm
Quote
Zmaj was a seaplane tender, and it has 2x2x40 mm guns
I have read more often 2x2 too but less often 2x1, only pictures would help know the truth or some official paper. Note that Skoda 37mm can appear as 40mm since Skoda had the habit of rounding the calibre in their designations.


Quote
Could this be of any assistance

Sorry no, that is after Germans changed all guns.


Title: Re: Royal Yugoslav navy destroyers
Post by: Dili on September 03, 2009, 03:52:21 pm
Quote
Also, look at the breech mechanism, it is definetly a semi automatic loading guns. Is it possible that this guns were AT veapons adapted for AA role?

If that gun in picture it is those 37mm(4cm) in Dubrovnik that also explains why it was replaced. It wasn't good enough for AA.

Follows a part of the text(German) about Dubrovnik in book  Kriegsmarine in der Adria 1941-45 (Marine Arsenal). It refer the Skoda 4cm(which for Skoda could mean 37mm)/67.


Title: Re: Royal Yugoslav navy destroyers
Post by: Dreadnought on September 04, 2009, 10:03:46 am
If that gun in picture it is those 37mm(4cm) in Dubrovnik that also explains why it was replaced. It wasn't good enough for AA.

Follows a part of the text(German) about Dubrovnik in book Kriegsmarine in der Adria 1941-45 (Marine Arsenal). It refer the Skoda 4cm(which for Skoda could mean 37mm)/67.

I found the data that Dubrovnik, before rearming, had Skoda guns type 37 (40) mm/L67 ... but I can not validate the source ... So far, the source did not proved to be too reliable ... But it seems to me that this time is right ...

I hope we resolve the problem and mystery ...



Title: Re: Royal Yugoslav navy destroyers
Post by: Dili on September 04, 2009, 11:48:49 am
Further data on Skoda was discovered  by the edge in http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=70&t=157514&p=1371783#p1371783

Skoda Z1 40mm dual propose gun - also references here http://www.palba.cz/viewtopic.php?t=2493

Barrel length: L/71 (could be 40/67 "in Italian"   My note:could be since italians had a different way to measure tube lenght)
HE round weight: .95kg
Shell Vo is 900-1000m/s
Cyclic rate: 40 rpm

Concerning calibre at .95kg round weight is is most certainly a real 40mm gun and not a 37mm gun.
Now it is only needed a photo of Dubrovnik with 40mm Bofors to confirm it was really replaced. I have doubts.



Title: Re: Royal Yugoslav navy destroyers
Post by: Dili on September 04, 2009, 11:55:53 am
Concerning Zmaj Minelayer i have found also in "Kriegsmarine in der Adria" that it had also two double mounts of  this gun Skoda 4cm/67.


Title: Re: Royal Yugoslav navy destroyers
Post by: MOTORISTA on September 04, 2009, 02:05:28 pm
Well, this realy looks like gun from Dubrovnik and Zmaj. Thank you Dili :)


Title: Re: Royal Yugoslav navy destroyers
Post by: Dili on September 04, 2009, 02:43:38 pm
Do you have a pic from Zmaj with this gun, and of Dubrovnik with Bofors?


Title: Re: Royal Yugoslav navy destroyers
Post by: Dreadnought on September 04, 2009, 03:58:49 pm
I found it  ... Skoda 40mm/L67 on the Zmaj

You are right .. Dili, this photo that you posted on the forum, are guns from Zmaj.. In fact, I'm sure that they are actually pictured on the Zmaj

[attachment=1]

Here it is the same twin canon's at its position on the Zmaj

[attachment=2]


Title: Re: Royal Yugoslav navy destroyers
Post by: Dili on September 04, 2009, 04:14:44 pm
Excellent!

Edit: now it is needed only a picture of a Bofors in Dubrovnik.

I'll post later some pictures i have found of Perun Tanker. It is said it had also 40mm guns of unknown manufacturer.

Below website lists Bofors guns bought by various states: 6 Dual and 8 single for Yugoslavia. If not happened another buy there aren't guns to upgrade Dubrovnik. The listed ones fits Beograd Class and Orjen torpedo boats.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/330333/message/1192092430/Part+4



Title: Re: Royal Yugoslav navy destroyers
Post by: MOTORISTA on September 04, 2009, 09:15:02 pm
I finaly found it...this is what made confusion about those AA guns...

http://www.navypedia.org/ships/germany/ger_cv_drache.htm


Title: Re: Royal Yugoslav navy destroyers
Post by: Dili on September 04, 2009, 09:53:51 pm
Many websites have this wrong.
This guns are probably callled 40mm/L71 with M.(year) in Yugoslav nomenklature . I think 40/67 is the Italian designation because Italians measured tube lenght in different way and it is usually less 3-4 calibres. It would be interesting to know if my hipothesis is true and they were really Skoda 40/71  or are instead a variant  with 67 tube lenght, but for that is needed official sources.


Title: Re: Royal Yugoslav navy destroyers
Post by: MOTORISTA on September 04, 2009, 10:14:31 pm
Almost every nation had different mesuring system, that why there is so much confusion. This is an example...

Barrel Length / Bore Length - One of the more confusing items about gun designations is that the way that the length (calibers) of a gun barrel is measured differs from nation to nation.  The USA measured starting from the inner breech face for both bag and cartridge guns.  Austria-Hungary (Skoda), Germany and Russia measured the length of the entire barrel.  Britain, France, Italy, Japan and Sweden (Bofors) measured starting from the top of the mushroom head (vent axial) of the breech block for bag guns and starting from the inner breech face for cartridge guns.  These differing methods have often resulted in nomenclature errors in reference works.  For example, the 38 cm SK C/34 guns on the German battleship Bismarck are often noted as being 47 calibers long.  Per the German method - overall barrel length - these guns were 51.66 calibers long and per the British/USA method - measured from the inner breech face - they were 48.3 calibers long.  As every German document I have seen refers to these guns as being the equivalent of either 51.66 or 52 calibers long, I am not certain why so many authors refer to these guns as being 47 calibers long.  My thanks to M.J. Whitley, whose series of books on German Warships of World War II first enlightened me on how the German methods differed from those of other nations.  On my webpages, "Gun Length oa" refers to the overall barrel length.  "Bore length" is per each nation's specification except where noted.

I`ve found it here: http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/Gun_Data.htm


Title: Re: Royal Yugoslav navy destroyers
Post by: Dili on September 06, 2009, 04:14:40 pm
I know. But Italians were the only i know that consistently changed even original nomenklature. Everything they put their hands on they changed it.


Beograd Model Photo I collected while ago from Web. Unfortunately i didn't find a working link now. It think it was from YUmodel but the site seems to have changed.

[attachment=1][attachment=2][attachment=3][attachment=4][attachment=5]


Title: Re: Royal Yugoslav navy destroyers
Post by: MOTORISTA on September 06, 2009, 08:07:25 pm
This pictures were taken in Military museum in Belgrade. It`s model of destroyer Zagreb that was scuttled ( blown up) by leutenants Sergej Mašera and Milan Spasić on 17.04.1941.

On third photo you can see model of destroyer R-21 Kotor ( ex Royal Navy W class Kampenfelt).


Title: Re: Royal Yugoslav navy destroyers
Post by: Dili on September 06, 2009, 08:37:08 pm
Thanks for that info. Any reason for that horrible chrome in that ex. British destroyer?


Title: Re: Royal Yugoslav navy destroyers
Post by: MOTORISTA on September 06, 2009, 08:43:50 pm
Sorry, no idea at all. It was long time since I was in the Military museum. In fact it was closed for restauration for some time.


Title: Re: Royal Yugoslav navy destroyers
Post by: Dili on September 18, 2009, 06:07:54 pm
Thanks.


I suppose no one found photo evidence of a Bofors in Dubrovnik replacing the Skodas?


Title: Re: Royal Yugoslav navy destroyers
Post by: Dreadnought on September 18, 2009, 06:13:45 pm
Unfortunatelly, not yet ...


Title: Re: Royal Yugoslav navy destroyers
Post by: Dili on September 18, 2009, 06:42:46 pm
Thanks dreadnought.


Title: Re: Royal Yugoslav navy destroyers
Post by: marinero on February 03, 2010, 10:42:53 pm
This pictures were taken in Military museum in Belgrade. It`s model of destroyer Zagreb that was scuttled ( blown up) by leutenants Sergej Mašera and Milan Spasić on 17.04.1941.

On third photo you can see model of destroyer R-21 Kotor ( ex Royal Navy W class Kampenfelt).

I need to correct you, Motorista...
These pictures were taken in the Maritime museum in Kotor, not in Belgrade. The model of the "Zagreb" destroyer was built by late Sime Radovic from Tivat who was the main modeller for the JNA (he also made models of tanks, artillery pieces, ships and so on).


Title: Re: Royal Yugoslav navy destroyers
Post by: FF on February 04, 2010, 06:56:26 am
Marinero is speaking right. These photos are taken in maritime museum Kotor. I pictured them in summer 2007 and first time published at ABG forum.


Title: Re: Royal Yugoslav navy destroyers
Post by: markoz on November 24, 2011, 10:04:04 pm
Hello its my first post on here last week I came across an article on the web about Dubrovnik which stated that the plan was to build a further three ships in Yugoslav yards.

This plan hit some problems and the Yugoslavs turned to France who subsequently supplied the Beograd and technology to build 2 more in Yugoslav yards.

is there any information about the origional plans available.

regards


Title: Re: Royal Yugoslav navy destroyers
Post by: Dreadnought on November 25, 2011, 10:23:14 am
Maybe this will be helpful to you, if I underastood you well  :)

[attachment=1]

http://www.paluba.info/smf/index.php?topic=6514.msg122088#msg122088


Title: Re: Royal Yugoslav navy destroyers
Post by: markoz on December 02, 2011, 07:50:15 pm
Maybe this will be helpful to you, if I underastood you well  :)

[attachment=1]

http://www.paluba.info/smf/index.php?topic=6514.msg122088#msg122088
Thanks very much, they were going to build three similar ships in Yugoslavia but something went wrong, was it finance or was it the loss of armaments supplier (Czechs) in 1938.


Title: Re: Royal Yugoslav navy destroyers
Post by: FF on December 02, 2011, 11:03:29 pm
Hi,

construction of second flotilla leader (similar to Dubrovnik) started in july 1939 i Split shipyard. Plan was to arm ship with five 140mm Škoda guns, 10 Bofors 40mm AA guns, and 2 triple torpedo launchers. Unlike the Dubrovnik, it was planed to install automaticly loaded 140mm guns, but they were never ordered, because WWII break out.

After collaps of Yugoslav Kingdom in April war 1941, the kill was captured by Italians, who continued construction, but due to frequent sabotage by communists activist in yard, they never managed to launch the ship. After Italy capitulated, Germans retrieved construction, but also did not succses to finish it.

After the war, in the late 40s, new Yugoslav Navy began new construction. Ship was finally finished in 1958. and equiped thanks to US Millitary Aid Programe simillar to Fletcher class destroyers, armed with four 127mm automaticly loaded guns. It served in JRM until late 70s. It was stricken in 1985.


Title: Re: Royal Yugoslav navy destroyers
Post by: markoz on December 03, 2011, 01:20:01 pm
Thanks very much  :)