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Author Topic: Could Yugoslavia have successfully resisted Italy in 1919?  (Read 23290 times)
 
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Oldbill
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« on: August 18, 2012, 04:13:53 pm »

   I have been reading about the end of WWI, the creation of Yugoslavia (or the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes) and the loss of Istria and Fiume.  Would it have been possible for the new nation to have resisted the Italians if the dispute over Fiume had brought about open warfare?   Where could a good defensive line have been built?
                          Kind Regards,
                           Old Bill
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ViribusUnitis
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« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2012, 04:54:08 pm »

Yugoslav Army was quite weaker than Italian 1919. Serbian Army from WW1 was its core and exhausted. Also, army was engaged in securing other borders which were all disputable in 1919. except the Greek border. It is important to remember huge Italian superiority on seas. Yugoslavia did not have navy in 1919. and Italy was great power. Italy had strategic advantage keeping occupied big part of coast according to armistice with Austria-Hungary. One of reasons for signing Rapallo treaty 1920. was Yugoslav military weakness. Nevertheless, Italy found that Rapallo treaty was a huge humiliation and Italian nationalist were talking about "vittoria mutilata". On the other had it is not correct to say that Belgrade "sold" Istria and Fiume. Minister Trumbić got as much as he could. As I can remember Yugoslav Army had less than 300000 men and Italy more than 1000000.

Kolega Oldbill pita je li bio moguć otpor JV Italiji 1919. u vrijeme jadranske krize. Odgovaram mu da nije jer je JV bila slaba i iscrpljena, kordonski raspoređena duž svih granica koje su (sve osim grčke) bile sporne. Također na moru je Italija imala aposlutnu prednost a držala je pod okupacijom i veći dio naše obale. Ipak su Talijani tvrdili da je Rapallo za njih bio poraz i "unakažena pobjeda". Nepošteno je tvrditi da je Beograd "prodao" Istru i Rijeku. Naprotiv, postignuto je najviše što se moglo u datim uvjetima, upravo zbog vojne slabosti. Podsjetio sam i na brojno stanje vojski: 300.000 spram 1.000.000.
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kumbor
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« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2012, 05:14:58 pm »

The sole and only  worth military force on the territory of the emerging yugoslav state was the Serbian army. Serbian army was brilliantly led and, in 1918, adequately equipped. Serbian troops had victoriously liberated the territory of Kingdom of Serbia - from the greek border in the south, up  to the Danube in the north - in only 45-50 days, literally rolling over the existing units of once omnipotent german and austro-hungarian army. But, the civillian infrastructure of Serbia was largely devastated, and casualties in both military and civillian population amounted to some 1.300.000 (one millionthreehundred thousand) dead during the whole 4 year war period, out of total population amounting barely 4 million. Serbia has lost some 43 percent of male population of 18 years and up, which was the real demographic catastrophy. Serbian army was substantially exhausted by 6 year war (Balkan wars of 1912-13 comprised), it lacked substantial units of heavy artillery, critical for large scale offensive operations. There was no any reserves, in materiel, men, food and money, essential for offensive operations. West of the river Drina, in the territory of Bosnia, Croatia and Slovenia, there was no not only any military units worth mentioning, except wandering (and plundering) bands of dissoluted austro-german and hungarian units (green cadre), some of them openly nationalistic, - but there was hardly any viable civillian government of any kind.
Politically, a step of oposing Italy militarily could have had one and only outcome -swift military defeat, followed by political catastrophy possibly even greater than that experienced by Greeks in Anadolia in 1921. The whole bloody and nevertheless brilliant serbian victory, and even future biological destiny of serbian nation would have been put at stake by such an idiotic move.  Croatian and slovene people would have been erased from the face of planet earth, and their territory definitively carved up.
So, I am deeply convinced that nobody in serbian high command had thought of substantial military conflict with Italy in 1918-20 and there were no serious military plans of a kind. except plans for protecting those borders already obtained by Rapallo treaty - which was political maximum of what could have been obtained at the moment by peaceful means.
Bluntly - we would have been crushed like cockroaches in a few days time.
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Oldbill
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« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2012, 07:19:51 pm »

 Thank you both for these replies. It completely clarifies the situation, and confirms some of my thoughts.
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gocemk
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« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2012, 07:45:28 pm »

Италијански освајања Истра и приобални део Словеније је отворила први политички и унутрашњи сукоби између Срба, Хрвата и Словенаца. Разлог је био да Краљ Александар није реаговао војно против ове агресије. Одлука краља у Словенији и Хрватској се посматрати као нека врста повреда споразум између Срба Хрвата и Словенаца у Краљевина СХС, где ове три земље су договорили да се бране у случају агресије од својих суседа, али морамо  узети да Краљ Александар имао два проблема
Први је био да је Србија Већ материјално и финансијски уништена после 6 година рата 1912-1918, она људи у Србији дали су  много жртава у Првом светском рату.
Други проблем је био сукоб са македонском ВМРО,која је у 1919 под руководство Тодор Александров, реорганизује у  војну силу  са 9110 људи под оружјем,који су  почели  агресивна четничку кампању у  Вардар Македонија што је значило додатне снаге Краљевина СХС  бити послати у македонију, тако из 17 хиљадат жандармерија из цела краљевина 12 хиљада послати су у Македонији и плус 35 хиљада војника
да се бори против ВМРО и из тих разлога Краљ Александар је дао ИСТРА Италијане, али ово је био разлог  да се јављају  незадовољство у Хрватско и Словенија. И ако са  војска реаговала Александар
онда други светски рат би почео у 1920 с једне стране, Италија Мађарска и ВМРО а на на другој страни СХС са Француској


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ViribusUnitis
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« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2012, 08:24:49 pm »

Nepravedno je reći da je Aleksandar dao Istru Italiji. Italija je već bila u posjedu Istre 1918. kada se raspao austrijski front. JV je osim zaštite demarkacione linije prema Italiji i angažmana u Makedoniji koga spominje Gocemk, ratovala i s Austrijom u Koruškoj sve do kraja 1919., a napeto je bilo i prema Mađarskoj i Albaniji. Čak je i s Rumunjskom bilo čarki u Banatu.

Kumbor, thank you for comprehensive clarification of military situation in post-ww1 years.
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gocemk
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« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2012, 09:19:38 pm »

Nepravedno je reći da je Aleksandar dao Istru Italiji. Italija je već bila u posjedu Istre 1918. kada se raspao austrijski front. JV je osim zaštite demarkacione linije prema Italiji i angažmana u Makedoniji koga spominje Gocemk, ratovala i s Austrijom u Koruškoj sve do kraja 1919., a napeto je bilo i prema Mađarskoj i Albaniji. Čak je i s Rumunjskom bilo čarki u Banatu.

Kumbor, thank you for comprehensive clarification of military situation in post-ww1 years.

ако можи повеке напиши за рат у корушкој
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Bozo13
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« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2012, 11:07:49 pm »

Sorry kumbor, but i can not agree with you.
Later today or tomorow, when i will be back home, will give you more explanation about that.

Truth is anyway that we couldnt resist italian army in full battle.

BRB
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ViribusUnitis
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« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2012, 11:42:36 pm »

Za Gocemk, par riječi o Koruškoj. Kratko, da ne idemo u OT.
Sukobi ostataka austrijske vojske kojima se priključio nacionalistički, paravojni Heimwehr i slovenskih dobrovoljaca počeli su već u oktobru 1918. Tada je pukovnik, kasnije jugoslavenski general, Rudolf Majster, uz pomoć pristiglih srpskih trupa zauzeo Maribor i dosegao liniju koja će kasnije postati i granica u Štajerskoj.
U Koruškoj je također bilo sukoba između srpsko-slovenskih i austrijskih trupa koji su s promjenjivom srećom trajali od oktobra 1918. do aprila 1919. kada je jugoslavenska vojska izvela opći napad i zauzela praktično čitavu Korušku s Celovcem i Gosposvetskim poljem. S tih pozicija je jugoslavenska vlada predlagala podjelu Koruške. Ipak, na insistiranje Italije mirovni ugovor sklopljen u Saint-Germaineu sadržavao je odredbu o plebiscitu u Koruškoj. Kao što je poznato, Koruška se odlučila za ostanak u Austriji.
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gocemk
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« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2012, 05:07:53 pm »

хвала ViribusUnitis
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wermez
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« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2012, 06:26:02 pm »

My opinion is that if Croats, Slovenes, Muslims and other nationalities joined Serbs, Italians would be stopped. Lack of navy would be the biggest problem.
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kumbor
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« Reply #11 on: August 19, 2012, 06:26:57 pm »

Ma jok,bre!
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ViribusUnitis
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« Reply #12 on: August 19, 2012, 07:04:59 pm »

It is not the matter of Yugoslav unity but the matter of Italian military superiority besides the myth about Italians as bad soldiers. New-born Yugoslav state did not have industrial, logistical and demographic capability to succesfully fight Italy. Also, France and Britain were not eager to help. Italy was more important country for them and it was more important indeed. By the way, Yugoslav unity had its apogee in 1918, 1919 and 1920. Slovenes and Croats from bordering teritories were great Yugoslavs those days because they knew they are helpless without unity with Serbia. Without Yugoslav state Italy would surely enter Ljubljana and Zagreb even in 1918.
In fact, Rapallo Treaty was a great success. London Treaty (1915) promised Italy great part of Dalmatia but it achieved only Zadar.
In fact, Italians were stopped.
Finally, nothing is worth human loses. Human lives are more valuable than teritory. Anyway, human life is the greatest value. Both, Yugoslavs and Italians should have been happy that war was avoided.
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wermez
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« Reply #13 on: August 19, 2012, 07:12:22 pm »

Thank you for your explanation. But why have Italians accepted Rapallo Treaty?
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ViribusUnitis
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« Reply #14 on: August 19, 2012, 08:13:31 pm »

They accepted it very hardly and they had internal political problems about it. More precisely, Italy did accept Rapallo Treaty officially but never sincerely. The rise of fascism was one of consequences of Rapallo Treaty or feeling of disappointment it produced. It is worth saying that Italian Prime Minister Giovanni Giolitti, who signed the treaty, was not diehard nationalist.
As Britain and France did not support Yugoslavia they did not support Italy. Paris and London wanted to solve Adria Question and get rid if it. France wanted to consolidate Versailles Order and had on mind Germany and new Soviet state as main problems. Entente powers told Rome and Belgrade: "Settle the compromise and if you do not do it, you would lose our friendship". (It is not the quote but essence). Had Italy chosen the war and started it, she would be alone and isolated. The same would happen to Yugoslavia if Yugoslavia had chosen the war.
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