PALUBA
March 29, 2024, 04:49:47 pm *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Donirajte Palubu
 
   Home   Help Login Register  

Prijatelji

▼▼▼▼

Mesto za Vaš baner

kontakt: brok@paluba.info

Del.icio.us Digg FURL FaceBook Stumble Upon Reddit SlashDot

Pages:  [1] 2   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Suomi M-31 na našim prostorima  (Read 15307 times)
 
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Bozo13
Stručni saradnik - KoV
kapetan bojnog broda
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 16 530



« on: March 16, 2013, 09:36:25 pm »

Neznam gde da stavim, pa da probam tu.

Našao sam sliku, a vojnik na levi nosi Suomi M-31 automat. Malo još guglao i pronašao  da bi mogao biti i švicarac.
[ Attachment: You are not allowed to view attachments ]

Quote
The model Mp. 43 and 43/44 appears to be a Finnish m/31 "Suomi" SMG produced under licence in Switzerland.

Ima koja ideja dali je to švicarac, finac i kako je dospelo na naše prostore.


LPB


Molim sve da unatoč slici ne idemo u  T.11.


* 2hpmv0n.jpg (86.94 KB, 800x1080 - viewed 523 times.)
Logged
ssekir75
poručnik fregate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 4 194


« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2013, 09:45:36 pm »

ne znam sta je ovo ali je finaca bilo. licno vido jedan svojevremeno u spomen sobi 211. oklopne (mada se vodio kao spagin, ali mi je paznju privukla latinica). verovatno doslo preko sovjeta. sad, da li su nemci zarobili pa dali ustasama, ili su rusi posle dostavili kao pomoc, ne znam... po ovoj slici verovatnije je da su nemci dali ustasama. a ne treba zaboraviti da je finska bila saveaznik nemacke, mozda je bilo i saveznicke pomoci finaca ustasama.
Logged
jadran2
Stručni saradnik - istorija RM
kapetan bojnog broda
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 13 147



« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2013, 09:48:51 pm »

NDH, prema izvorima, nabavila 1942-43 1250 komada "finaca".
Logged
ssekir75
poručnik fregate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 4 194


« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2013, 09:57:42 pm »

eto vidis. znaci ipak je bila direktna nabavka.
Logged
Bozo13
Stručni saradnik - KoV
kapetan bojnog broda
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 16 530



« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2013, 09:59:27 pm »

Hvala Jadrane, to nisam znao.
Logged
kumbor
Stručni saradnik - opšti
kapetan bojnog broda
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 17 447


« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2013, 11:13:26 pm »

Tipičan automat tridesetih godina, nema presovanih limova, sve je glodano iz debelog metala. Kvalitet.
Logged
ssekir75
poručnik fregate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 4 194


« Reply #6 on: March 17, 2013, 12:54:57 am »

nego, koja je ovo haubica?
Logged
jadran2
Stručni saradnik - istorija RM
kapetan bojnog broda
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 13 147



« Reply #7 on: March 17, 2013, 08:53:17 am »

nego, koja je ovo haubica?

Lici na 150 mm japansku haubicu M1914 (koju su imali Finci - ima logike i veze sa spomenutim automatom). Na fotografiji su zarobljene finske haubice tokom zimskog rata (2/1940 kod sela Summa)
[ Attachment: You are not allowed to view attachments ]


* japanske haubice 150 mm M1914.jpg (150.98 KB, 1000x680 - viewed 285 times.)
Logged
MOTORISTA
Počasni global moderator
kapetan bojnog broda
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 62 007



« Reply #8 on: March 17, 2013, 12:06:21 pm »

nego, koja je ovo haubica?

Lici na 150 mm japansku haubicu M1914 (koju su imali Finci - ima logike i veze sa spomenutim automatom). Na fotografiji su zarobljene finske haubice tokom zimskog rata (2/1940 kod sela Summa)
[ Attachment: You are not allowed to view attachments ]

Finci su koristili 12 ovih oruđa pod oznakom 150 H 14 J. Od tih 12 oruđa 11 je zarobljeno u februaru 1940 od strane sovjeta. E sada, na Božinoj slici jeste ovo oruđe, ali kako su ona stigla ovde...bog te pita. Jedino da su ih finci opet zarobili 1941, pa ih prodali NDH zajedno sa automatima 1942/43.

Logged
ssekir75
poručnik fregate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 4 194


« Reply #9 on: March 17, 2013, 02:17:17 pm »

знам да се овде мувало неколико намбу пиштоља, један сам чак имао у рукама, али јапнске хаубице... је л нека од њих преживела рат?
Logged
Prvačić
potporučnik
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 2 282


« Reply #10 on: June 07, 2016, 01:27:27 pm »

Ima nešto ovdje: http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/MACHINEPISTOLS1.htm

"22nd of October 1942  500  to Croatia"
i
"1st of July 1943 750  to Croatia, almost certainly no actual deal mad"
Logged
Bozo13
Stručni saradnik - KoV
kapetan bojnog broda
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 16 530



« Reply #11 on: June 08, 2016, 06:30:05 am »

Evo, posle malo prepiske sa autorom pomenutog sajta, tu su informacije oko Hrvatskih Suomi M-31.



Quote
Hi

The particular list in my page actually contains two export permits that Tikkakoski got for exporting Suomi m/31 sub machineguns to Croatia. The first permit for 500 weapons in October of 1942 and second permit for 750 weapons in June of 1943. While the first deal actually happened with 500 weapons being delivered, there is no proof that the 2nd export permit would have been ever used. There are quite a lot of info about the first deal, but when it comes to 2nd deal there is basically nothing in any sources beyond noting that there are no proof of actual contract or any deliveries concerning it.


This is what I found find about the first deal:
 
The contact about this deal was signed in 4th of September 1942 and it involved first selling 500 sub machineguns and option for selling additional 250 sub machineguns per month until total of 2,000 weapons would have been delivered. In addition of the first 500 weapons Croatia wanted to buy 2,000 50-round box magazines, 100 70-round drum magazines, 500 loading tools (for 50 round magazines) and 1 million rounds of 9 x 19 sub machinegun ammunition. Finnish seller was Tikkakoski factory, but also Ministry of Foreign affairs and Finnish military took part in its arrangements.


Croatian buyer for this deal was Croatian Ministry of Interior Affairs, which was represented by special commission.  Early on Croatia offered to provide payment mainly as food stuffs, but this was unacceptable to the Finns, who would have preferred payment as suitable foreign currency (such Swiss Francs), which Finland would have needed for its acquisitions from Switzerland and Sweden. Finally the two parties got succeeded agreeing about the payment – which was to be 20 tons of cast bronze.


Finnish Armed Forces HQ provided its approval for deal in 16th of October 1942 and Ministry of Foreign affairs provided export permit in 22nd of October. First delivery that contained 250 sub machineguns was shipped from Finland with S/S Aldebaran 28th of October, there are no exact info about other deliveries. After this first delivery problems surfaced and 2nd of March 1943 Tikkakoski reported to Finnish Ministry of Foreign Affairs that they had been forced to stop deliveries because Croatia had failed to deliver shipment of bronze that would have been payment. By that Tikkakoski had already delivered 500 sub machineguns and all other materials that were to be delivered with them except 750 magazines and million rounds of ammunition.


According info that was received in negotiations in between representative of Finnish embassy A. Yöntilä and Head of Croatian State Police Dr. Vidali in March of 1943 the Croatians had gathered storage of bronze church bells in town of Jasenovac to be used as payment, but Italian military had confiscated them and taken to Italy, even if they had already been sold to Finland. Yöntilä’s report on the matter also indicated that the deal had been made without Croatian government being aware of it. Croatia offered to pay the delivery with Swiss Francs, but by that time the Finns had decided to rather prefer payment to be made in metals, which could be used by Finnish industry. Ultimately Croatia paid the sub machineguns by delivering 10 tons of bronze and 10 tons of other metals (copper, zinc and lead).


The citation is available online and can be found on its pages 158 – 161. The citation can be found here, as you can guess unfortunately it is in Finnish: https://jyx.jyu.fi/dspace/handle/123456789/12054


When it comes to Japanese 150-mm howitzers model 1914, I am afraid I cannot provide much help on the matter. My best guess is that they might have found their way to Balkans during World War 1. As mentioned in the website Russia bought particular howitzers from Japan during that war - perhaps they delivered some of these howitzers to Serbia or perhaps Austro-Hungary captured some of the howitzers from Russia during World War 1 and took them to Balkans?
 
Best Regards

 Jarkko
Logged
MOTORISTA
Počasni global moderator
kapetan bojnog broda
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 62 007



« Reply #12 on: June 08, 2016, 07:41:33 am »

Što se tiče haubica:

Quote
Finnish use: 12 captured in Civil War of 1918. White Army didn't use them in that war. Field Artillery used during Winter War them until 11 were lost 13th of February 1940. The one non-lost one and the two recaptured in 1941 didn't see any combat use during Continuation War.

This howitzer was Krupp design known as 10,5 cm sFH 02 in Germany manufactured in Japan as Meiji 38 (model 1905 according western chronology). Japanese military bought first of these howitzers from Germany during Russian-Japanese War of 1904 - 1905 and later manufacturing of the howitzer under license. The howitzer remained in Japanese until end of the World War 2 and was also used as armament of Type 4 Ho-Ro self-propelled howitzer. During World War 1 Russian military had shortage of artillery weapons, so Russia bought these howitzers from Japan. In fact, it is likely, that the model 1914 of Finnish name to this howitzer model may originate from year the Russians bought them.

Structure-wise this howitzer is pretty typical heavy howitzer of its era. It had the usual box trail with hole in middle of it for more elevation, recoil system with hydraulic/spring buffer/recuperator below barrel and wood wheels with steel hoops. It also had screw breech and a dial sight but no gun shield. Ammunition was separately loaded type and only HE-ammunition seems to have been used in Finland. Finnish military used HE-projectiles with both TNT and ammonal (ammonium nitrate based high explosive) filling, these ammunition types were probably Russian origin (since they had been included already to Finnish artillery manuals from year 1925).

In Finnish Civil War of 1918 Finnish White Army captured 12 of these howitzers. According some sources Finnish Red Guards and Russians had used them against Finnish White Army before capture, but according another source they were captured without battle use either at Huopalahti warehouses of Russian Army or Russian Garrison in Södervik (Suvilahti) - both places are in Helsinki area. Either way White Army didn't use them during Civil War. These dozen heavy howitzers might not see much in scale of this day, but considering the weaponry situation of Finnish military before Winter War they were very important - all other heavy howitzer models in Finnish use at that time were even less numerous. Being the only howitzers numerous enough to arm whole Heavy Artillery Battalion (of 12 guns/howitzers) they became main training weaponry for Finnish heavy field artillery before World War 2. In late 1930's four of the howitzers were in training use of Civil Guard (Suojeluskunta) artillery units, while eight remained in use of Heavy Artillery Regiment (principal heavy artillery training unit for Finnish Army). The training use took its toll - ammunition for them was in short supply already before Winter War. In mobilisation for Winter War all 12 howitzers were issued to Heavy Artillery Battalion 2, which supported Finnish troops in vitally important Summa sector of Mannerheim-line. Because of their short range the howitzers they had to be close to frontline. 13th of February 1940 Soviets achieved breach in Lähde sector of Summa, due to breakdown in communications Heavy Artillery Battalion 2 didn't receive information about this in time. So the tanks roared into fire positions of Heavy Artillery Battalion 2 without alarm. Surprised howitzer crews had no change of fighting back and 11 of these horse-towed howitzers were lost in matter of minutes. Only one 150 H/14j howitzer survived in Finnish hands that day - it had been under repair in Viipuri/Wiborg when the others were lost. When Continuation War started and Finnish troops took back the lost areas in Carelian Isthmus two of the 150 H/14j lost in Summa were recaptured in Perkjärvi, where the Soviets had warehoused them after Winter War. Three howitzers were still too little for reintroducing them to combat use, but one of the recaptured howitzers got a prestigious job: The Finns set it on pedestal to replace statue of Lenin centre of Äänislinna/Petroskoi/Petrozavosk city. Once the Soviets recaptured the city in 1944 they in their own turn replaced the howitzer with Lenin statue. The remaining two howitzers didn't see any use after World War 2 either. The only howitzer that avoided capture in February of 1940 is nowadays in Finnish Artillery Museum.

Izvor: www.jaegerplatoon.net

Ono što mi je palo u oči je da su te japanske haubice licencne verzije nemačkih 15cm sFH02, tako da je na fotografiji, najverovatnije, neka od original nemačkih haubica.

https://web.archive.org/web/20120222064449/http://www.landships.freeservers.com/150mm_sfh_02_walkaround.htm
Logged
Dreadnought
Počasni global moderator
kapetan bojnog broda
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 69 456



« Reply #13 on: June 09, 2016, 08:33:04 am »

Motorista, ti si bre razvio internacionalnu mrežu saradnika, neki bi rekli " Ko si ti? Pa ti nisi Jakovljević, ti si neki veći izdajnik"  Grin

Jesi li zahvalio čoveku za info? Smiley
Logged
MOTORISTA
Počasni global moderator
kapetan bojnog broda
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 62 007



« Reply #14 on: June 09, 2016, 08:51:27 am »

Motorista, ti si bre razvio internacionalnu mrežu saradnika, neki bi rekli " Ko si ti? Pa ti nisi Jakovljević, ti si neki veći izdajnik" Grin



Jesi li zahvalio čoveku za info? Smiley

Jašta brate, kao što je i red. Cheesy
Logged
Pages:  [1] 2   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Prijatelji

▼▼▼▼

Prostor za Vaš baner

kontakt: brok@paluba.info

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines
Simple Audio Video Embedder

SMFAds for Free Forums
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.032 seconds with 25 queries.