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Author Topic: Question about Partizan Naval Battles during WWII  (Read 35192 times)
 
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lupodimare89
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« on: September 28, 2013, 03:07:33 pm »

Hello! I'm an italian user, member and contributor of an italian forum about naval warfare. In recent time i started to get interest about the activity of the Partizan flottilla of NB and PC boats, however i managed to find some interesting data and events that needs more details and others that are a bit obscure.

I write some of the most hot-topic questions about the most interesting naval engagements between partizan boats and the German ones, however there are many others that i could write in future.

(this short lists it's about engagement with Kriegsmarine  non-converted warships/armed motorships/schooners etc..).


2 June 1944
The second largest naval engagement involving a partizan boat. The NB-8 Korat had a clash against the German motor torpedo boat S-153, S-155, S-156 and S-157. A tricky attempt of boarding done by S-156 was prevented in the last minute, with a German sailor knocked out abord the Kornat and captured. In the following engagement S-155 and S-156 received damages (20mm hits). At 01.45 also S-153 and S-157 joined the fight. A second round of attack started at 02.15, with agains S-156 (small fires) and S-155 (multiple hits) damaged.
After the battle Kornat had 9 wounded.
I've failed to find exact data about the losses of the German motor torpedo boats. Even if some account speak about of partizan claims of damages on all the enemy units involved, the German War Diaries i've found mention only 2 S-boats damaged (S-155 and S-156).


Night between 5 and 6 Agust 1944
Engagement between partizan PC-22 Streljko against the german auxiliary minesweepers R-15 and R-16  in Murter Channel
I've failed to find details about the engagement: there were german or partizan damages/causalities?
Reading a general German War Diary of Kriegsmarine translated in english, germans mention only "many hits were scored on the gunboat (=Streljko)" without mention to their own boats.


5 September 1944
Partizan PC-53 Zora fought an unknown enemy ship near Makaraska.
I've failed to find further data.
German War Diary doesn't mention engagement but could easily lack about it: it however mention two losses, auxiliary minesweeper R-12 hit a mine and exploded at 05.25.   German coast guard vessel KS-20 "burnt and sunk after an engine explosion"
Someone know if these two events could be correlated with the engagemnt of Zora? Or if some else boat was involved in the fight?


23 October 1944
The largest Yugoslavian naval battle of the WWII. Online i've found only very few data about PC-2 Macola  , NB-14 Pionir, PC-24 Marjan and PC-4 Junak  fighting against the two large submarine chasers UJ-202 and UJ-208 near Maun island (ex-italian corvettes), with all units involved receiving small damages.
Actually reading the German War Diaries there are many many more details to check.
Germans actually claimed that they've been attacked by an overwhelming force of enemy units.
At first they said there was a clash of unspecified hour of the day 23 October.  Then on evening (hour 21.45) there was the main battle against "9 motor torpedo boats and gunboats" near Maun Island.
There the Germans did many (over)claims: UJ-208 claimed to have sunk a gunboat and a motor torpedo boat plus damaging other two MTBs
UJ-202 claimed to have sunk 2 gunboats and set afire a motor torpedo boat.
Apart this (erroneus) claims, the War Diaries still confirm that both the german warship were damaged (even if lightly) and recevied causalities for an amount of 3 KIA and 11 WIA.

This is usally not wrote in the very few lines of the battle i've found online.

But this isn't ended.
The German first say that the submarinechasers managed to sunk another motor torpedo boat on the morning of day 24 October, then they admit that a northbound convoy took part in the engagement of the evening of 23 October at Maun Island too!

It was a convoy formed of armed motor landing barges MFP kinds,
The F-554 claimed to have probably destroyed a gunboat with a direct hit of 88mm
THen the convoy succeeded "in making further hits on motor torpedo boats and gunboats": But the germans admitted that also the vessels of the convoy were seriously hit and dispersed, with the "radio station of the command boat that had broken down" and finally with the unit F-443 that was admitted as sunk.

All these engagements were claimed by Germans to have been fought against British small units, but the date it's the one with the battle fought by the partisan boats, also i've tried to find British data but they don't mentions involvment or fights on 23 October.
Also a book of Bryan Cooper that mentions some of the British actions of the mediterranean, say clearly that the largest British battle occurred on 11 October (against another MFP convoy, that was destroyed), without a word about a possible battle on 23 October.

Another German site mentioning the fate of F-443 speak of "British gunboats" as cause (possibly taking as source the same war diaries i've found).

Searching on British data, the MGB-659,662,674 and MTB-637 and MTB-638  of the 56th Flottilla were on passage from Vis to Ist on 21 October (and there destroyed a small convoy of I boats, with 92 enemy POW). They were NOT in action 2 days later at Maun Island.
The 57th Flottilla was involved in the big battle on 11 October, and nothing else until 1945.


Every comment, evaluations, confirms, denials, further data etc... it's more then appreciated!
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« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2013, 05:10:37 pm »

Hi lupodimare and welcome on board ( Paluba)

In the night of 22/23. october 1944, three patrol boats ( PČ-2 Macola, PČ-4 Junak and PČ-24 Marjan) and one armed ship ( NB-14 Pionir), were dispatched in Koromačna bay on Maun island with orders to attack any German transport ships on their way to and from city of Zadar. In the early morning on 23.10.1944, around 5 AM, ships raised they anchors and started their voyage home, but was spotted by German corvettes UJ202 ( ex-Melpomene) and UJ208 ( ex-Spingarda) of Gabbiano class. From the distance of 1,5NM first German ship in the line fired one luminous shell, and then both corvettes opened fire from their 20 mm cannons. At times they used their 100 mm canons. Partisan ships started to return fire , and broke their formation. At the moment of breaking of formation, PČ-4, put two smoke boxes in the water to conceal the retreat. Germans concentrated their fire on smoked area, so the Partisan ships managed to escape. This battle lasted for 10 minutes. All of the Partisan ships were seriosly damaged, and 4 crew members of NB-14 was wounded. According to Partisan documents, German ships recived no damage and no casulties.  Partisans tought that they were fighting against three S-boots, and Germans tought that they were fighting one MGB and three MTB.

Here you have some details about Partisan navy ships:

Armed ships

Patrol boats
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« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2013, 05:24:37 pm »

Here is text about NB-8 battle. It is in SC language, and I am afraid that you must use google translate Tongue

Battle of Blitvenica
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brodarski
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« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2013, 05:59:50 pm »

lupodimare from betasomm?
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lupodimare89
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« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2013, 07:32:31 pm »


Quote
Here is text about NB-8 battle. It is in SC language, and I am afraid that you must use google translate Tongue
Thanks ^^ no problem will do it easily.

Quote
lupodimare from betasomm?
Yes ^^

Quote
In the early morning on 23.10.1944, around 5 AM, ships raised they anchors and started their voyage home, but ...
Ok so the battle involving partisans boats was only at the morning right? A bit disappointing...
You (or someone else) has found something about who could have been involved in the successive hours and in evening?
Or could have met the convoy of MFPs?

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lupodimare89
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« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2013, 08:31:15 pm »

Damn... wrote wrong the MFP name, it was F-433, not F-443 <.<

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« Reply #6 on: September 29, 2013, 08:49:54 am »

Quote
In the early morning on 23.10.1944, around 5 AM, ships raised they anchors and started their voyage home, but ...
Ok so the battle involving partisans boats was only at the morning right? A bit disappointing...
You (or someone else) has found something about who could have been involved in the successive hours and in evening?
Or could have met the convoy of MFPs?


That is all I have for now. Maby French cruisers from 10.DCT had to do something with that.

There was another clash between Partizan and German ships near Maun island on the 9.10.1944, when NB-13 Partizan and PČ-2 Macola captured German transport ship Angelina. Germans had 3KIA and 9POW, while Partizans had 2WIA.
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lupodimare89
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« Reply #7 on: September 29, 2013, 11:48:01 am »



That is all I have for now. Maby French cruisers from 10.DCT had to do something with that.

There was another clash between Partizan and German ships near Maun island on the 9.10.1944, when NB-13 Partizan and PČ-2 Macola captured German transport ship Angelina. Germans had 3KIA and 9POW, while Partizans had 2WIA.
[/quote]

Oh ok, but don't worry ; ) I will give you a burst of questions also about the other engagements with transports, boats etc that welle boarded/captured etc..

I wanted to start thinking at the most "hot" topics, as for direct clashes with such regular units of the Kriegsmarine.

Um... French cruisers you say? I could try to search about it, however the German text was quiet clear about an engagement with small units, similar to the ones that clashed with on morning. If you're curious here there is the text of the war diary.
http://archive.org/stream/wardiarygermann621944germ#page/494/mode/2up
Page 495 (first mention), Page 497 (further details), Page 514 (strange reference of report of the battle occurred on "the morning of 23", should have been of the whole day or evenining). Page 528 (report of the MFP convoy).

Honestly i think that they still should have meet small boats, and the options are two:
1) the partisan crafts had some short exchange of fire on evening, maybe without notice the effect on enemy or on MFP.
2) maybe some other partisan crafts sailed that evening
3) Possibility of involvment of British MTB/MGB (as claimed by Germans, that still could have easily confused partisan boats with British ones)
I've checked this site for data: http://cfv.org.uk/forum/
About the 57th Flottilla ( MGB 638, MGB 659, MGB 660, MGB 662, MGB 674, MTB 634, MTB 637, MTB 670) there are diaries of  638, 359, 662, 634, 670. without a word about events occurring on 23/23/24 October.
About the 60th Flottilla (MGB 643, MGB 645, MGB 646, MGB 647 MGB 661, MTB 651, MTB 656, MTB 667 ) there are diaries of 646 and 647, again nothing happened around 22/23/24 October.
Exactly who were the others British Flottillas involved in fightings?
Still nothing surface from the general British accounts of warfare in Adriatic about fighting on 22/23/24: the main fightings of that months were the ones of 11 October and 21 October (this was an attack with destruction of convoy of I boats).


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« Reply #8 on: September 29, 2013, 03:56:39 pm »

In our records we have that only one clash occured that morning. There is no record of further engagement of our ships with Germans on that day. Even if that official documents were lost during the rest of the war, there was plenty memoires and books about Partizan navy units, where would this clash be described.
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lupodimare89
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« Reply #9 on: September 29, 2013, 05:49:20 pm »

Ok, thanks... it's still very much frustrating when naval warfare events remains unclear/unexplained v.v
Will try asking online if some british units took part at the evening engagement.
Still there is even the possibility of mistakes (that German war diary has mistakes here and there) but this event seemed well described to be one of them.

There are further data about the two engagements involving PC-22 Streljko vs R-15 + R-16   and  PC-53 Zora vs unknown ship?
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« Reply #10 on: September 29, 2013, 08:49:19 pm »

About PČ-53 I have only that it was involved in brief clash with enemy ship near Makarska on 5th september. It was probably armed merchant or transport ship.

PČ-22 was involved in clash with R-15 and R-16, but in our documents there is no mentions of any casulties on our or German side.
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lupodimare89
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« Reply #11 on: September 30, 2013, 10:51:59 am »

About PČ-53 I have only that it was involved in brief clash with enemy ship near Makarska on 5th september. It was probably armed merchant or transport ship.

PČ-22 was involved in clash with R-15 and R-16, but in our documents there is no mentions of any casulties on our or German side.

About R-15 and R-16 sadly there are few words. Because basically that online it's the general kriegsmarine war diary, one should find the specific one for Adriatic. However they claimed such "many hits scored" on the enemy boat, no other details sadly. Could be overclaim.

About 5 September.
The R-12 was reported sunk by mine at 05.25 hour of morning.
Location is not clear, was escorting units to lay minefield "Nutria" and "Feh-3" and the operation was stopped due drifting mine. So it's almost sure that that was the cause of sinking of R-12 (not understood the location, on previous page was wrote of Brac Island, but it doesn't say that this was the location for the 2 fiels).

There is no detail or place or hour about the loss of KS-20.

Nothing also in the following day.

There is no mention of short firefight, but if the boat/transport was in hands of the Ustasha, it's likely that the war diary don't report it (expecially if it wasn't an engagement with heavy result).


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lupodimare89
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« Reply #12 on: September 30, 2013, 11:16:30 am »

Well... if it's not a bother i would like to give further spread questions over details of other engagements ^^
Every help it's great and is also good just providing direct link.

Now, focusing on the NB and going on by order:

NB-1, NB-6, PC-2 and PC-4 capture the German assault boat KJ-10.  On 18 March 1944.
Actually this one could be considered an interesting success because was a military unit. If i'm right she was captured while being on the shore, there was some fighting around her?
Then i know that was renamed PC-57-I Annie and was sunk according one data on 12 April 1944 (due allied friendly fire air attack), according another source on 12 September, obviously one it's wrong, which one?

NB-2 is known to have been sunk by the German motor torpedo boats S-36 and S-61 on night of 17/18 March 1944. Reading a German extract of the engagement it say that " during which a motor fishingboat was sunk by artillery. " The ship is known to have made some resistance? Sadly i've not the war diary of March 1944, because that German extract seems not much incline to report all the times their S-boats suffer some kind of damage or causalities and could have easily omitted it (i guess it's likely that the crew of NB-2 attempted to defend themselves).



NB-3 her only victory is the event reguarding the loss of the minelayer Pasman. This ship actually should/could be the largest warship (exluding armed trasports) to have be lost by partisan naval action. Luckily this time the German war diary gave some details:
On 31 December she ran aground during the fog. The crew is reported of 24 Germans and 4 Croats. The ownership of the ship is still unclear (if it was to be commissioned to Kriegsmarine, or was already part of it, or was going to be given to Ustasha), but from the war diary seems to be considered (at the time) as a german warship. The crew has been reported as probably captured the same day of the grounding.
On 6 January the torpedo boat TA-22 is planned to be dispatched to free the crew and liberate the Pasman.
On 7 January the TA-22 can't go on sea due heavy weather, same thing for 8 January.
On 9 January finally the TA-22 departs, it reports that the crew wasn't there and was probably took prisoner on 30 or 31 December. "Investigations without results", there is no report of attempts of TA-22 to salvage and tow the Pasman.
According the site navypedia it was the crew of the NB-3 herself to destroy the Pasman with charges on 13 January.

Exactly what was the activity of the NB-3? Capturing the crew of Pasman and / or  destroy her with charges days laters?

Another interesting reported success here of NB-3 (from the list of NB boats in this site) it's that:
3 June 1944 shot down an aircraft close Brac. Exactly it's known the kind of aircraft? There is confirmations by wreck found/airmen captured?

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« Reply #13 on: September 30, 2013, 12:49:46 pm »

Are you trying to kill me? Grin

I would be more than happy if I could give an answer to all of your questions but I dont have them.
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lupodimare89
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« Reply #14 on: September 30, 2013, 01:52:28 pm »

Quote
Are you trying to kill me? Grin
I would be more than happy if I could give an answer to all of your questions but I dont have them.
Haha!! Sorry, xD i started with the "heavy style", just i'm survived from a long ongoing experience of co-work on an international forum about naval warfare of soviet navy, there there are lots of things still unknown (basically because documents were released only after '89, and not only the soviet ones).

No problem at all however, it's for a work on an italian forum and i like making things as most clear as possible ^^
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