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Author Topic: Question about Partizan Naval Battles during WWII  (Read 32143 times)
 
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lupodimare89
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« Reply #15 on: September 30, 2013, 02:19:17 pm »

But don't think i gave up ; )
BTW this is also a reminder and an invitation to everyone else that has some data or knowledge to spread them among the internet public. ^^
And finally i'm here also to give some further data that i collected here and there ^^ basically german war diaries, interesting stuff surface sometimes.

And to keep on the "bombing":  (still NB)


NB-4 and  NB-5  nothing relevant left unexplained.


NB-6
Apart for the capture of KJ-10 (read NB-1) there is another interesting event:
Between 9 and 10 December 43 board and capture transport Sv.Nikola of Ustasha (30 POW and cargo captured.).
German war diary gave a full confirms: even if they say that the croat auxiliary sailing vessel was attacked by 2 boats (not one). Also it gives information that Sv.Nikola was part of Croatian Navy (so it wasn't of the armed forces)


NB-7
The loss of NB-7 has some mystery for me: i've not well understood the background of the event: an accidental collision with NB-8 on 21 April 1944 but ... it happened during an war operation?


NB-8
Not much questions, and thanks for the good link that show well that engagement with S-boats!
Just to make clear a thing however: battle was 1 / 2  June night. But the same night the S-boats destroyed that small convoy of boats (as they did the previous night) taking a number of prisoners. How could be possible that the two events occurred same night? S-boats had time to unload the prisoners and then returning on patrol? Or they fought with prisoners onboard?
The German war diary doens't give such details: actally it doesn't speak of the small convoy destroyed on night betwen 1June and 2June at all! (it speak only about the one on 31 May / 1 June) .
And as i said Germans confirms damages of 2 S-boats (not all 4), almost surely S-155 and S-156, and it's still a good result.


NB-9
Thanks the link provided above, there are full data describing the operation involving the capture of Jadro (page 8 of link about NB)
A thing left unexplained about NB-9 it's however which british destroyer rammed her.


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« Reply #16 on: October 01, 2013, 09:13:42 am »

NB-3

When Pasman grounded on island Ist, its crew abandoned ship and bariccaded it self in a school. On the morning NB-3 lended a platoon of partizans who captured the crew of Pasman ( 24 Germans and 4 Ustashe). A few days later partizans destroyed ship with charges.

NB-6

On the night of 8/9. december 1943 NB-6 with two patrol boats of Hvar flotila, PČ-43 and PČ-45 captured ship Sv.Nikola.

NB-7

Yes, collision hapened during the war operation, a raid of 1. Dalmatian brigade on islands Hvar and Mljet.

NB-8

There was a report of KKpt. Trummer on the net, but I cant find it anymore.

NB-9

Nobody knows which RN destroyer rammed NB-9. All I know is that crew was picked up 45 minutes later from water by another RN destroyer.
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lupodimare89
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« Reply #17 on: October 01, 2013, 10:46:37 am »

Quote
When Pasman grounded on island Ist, its crew abandoned ship and bariccaded it self in a school. On the morning NB-3 lended a platoon of partizans who captured the crew of Pasman ( 24 Germans and 4 Ustashe). A few days later partizans destroyed ship with charges.
Just to wrote the correct day, it's said clearly when it was destroyed? I suppose the date of "13/01" is wrong, if it was "few days" later, it could be interesting to understand if the TA-22 found the already destroyed wreck or did not attempted to salvage her for some other reason.

Quote
Nobody knows which RN destroyer rammed NB-9. All I know is that crew was picked up 45 minutes later from water by another RN destroyer.
I THINK that some time ago before getting interest in this theatre of war i read something with the name of the destroyer involved, will search better.

(PS: of course will wrote a big thanking to you to the italian forum i'm writing for ^^)
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lupodimare89
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« Reply #18 on: October 01, 2013, 02:05:06 pm »

Little news from the battle of 23 octber, i got this reply from the british site:

"It does seem strange that there should have been two incidents on the same day, and two major engagements in the same area in the space of eight days. It also seems unlikely that a force of nine coastal forces craft would be involved in a single attack."

Then
 "Addendum: There does appear to be a very brief description of a skirmish on 23 October in Flag 4 by Dudley Pope in which he records the move from Vis of Lt Cmdr Morgan Giles to a new northern base of operations at Ist, using landing craft LCH 282 as his mobile headquarters, and accompanied by five boats from the 57th Flotilla who had sunk two I-boats on route, and captured a further two, which were later handed to the Partisans. This appears to have occurred on the 21st October, but Pope then goes on to record:"
Quote
Some enemy destroyers (a term loosely used to describe old destroyers, new-construction torpedo boats and corvettes) had been causing a lot of trouble among the islands. They had a brush with the LCGs and "Dog" boats on the 23rd but escaped undamaged.
Flag 4: Chapter XXXVI: Stabling The Horse: p.257 by Dudley Pope

So possibly we've found who could have met the Germans on evening, even if this British descriptions needs more details and check (it's basically a single line, sadly).

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« Reply #19 on: October 01, 2013, 08:44:56 pm »

Quote
When Pasman grounded on island Ist, its crew abandoned ship and bariccaded it self in a school. On the morning NB-3 lended a platoon of partizans who captured the crew of Pasman ( 24 Germans and 4 Ustashe). A few days later partizans destroyed ship with charges.
Just to wrote the correct day, it's said clearly when it was destroyed? I suppose the date of "13/01" is wrong, if it was "few days" later, it could be interesting to understand if the TA-22 found the already destroyed wreck or did not attempted to salvage her for some other reason.

Well maby it was destroyed on 13th of january...so far that is the last date where it is mentioned.

Little news from the battle of 23 octber, i got this reply from the british site:

"It does seem strange that there should have been two incidents on the same day, and two major engagements in the same area in the space of eight days. It also seems unlikely that a force of nine coastal forces craft would be involved in a single attack."

Then
 "Addendum: There does appear to be a very brief description of a skirmish on 23 October in Flag 4 by Dudley Pope in which he records the move from Vis of Lt Cmdr Morgan Giles to a new northern base of operations at Ist, using landing craft LCH 282 as his mobile headquarters, and accompanied by five boats from the 57th Flotilla who had sunk two I-boats on route, and captured a further two, which were later handed to the Partisans. This appears to have occurred on the 21st October, but Pope then goes on to record:"
Quote
Some enemy destroyers (a term loosely used to describe old destroyers, new-construction torpedo boats and corvettes) had been causing a lot of trouble among the islands. They had a brush with the LCGs and "Dog" boats on the 23rd but escaped undamaged.
Flag 4: Chapter XXXVI: Stabling The Horse: p.257 by Dudley Pope

So possibly we've found who could have met the Germans on evening, even if this British descriptions needs more details and check (it's basically a single line, sadly).



Excelent!!!

Those two captured ships was German I-boots. On 24.10.1944. RN gave two captured German ships as compensation for sunk NB-9. Those German I-boots become Partizan navy PČ-7 and PČ-8.

Thank you lupo.
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lupodimare89
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« Reply #20 on: October 03, 2013, 04:53:16 pm »

Will keep update if i find some other detail.
Same thing for identity of who rammed NB-9.


Last group of unresolved details for NB:


NB-10  Once again few detail over her loss. Reported captured by I-72, I-73 and I-76 on 8 February 1944.
Could be interesting know if there was a battle, some kind of resistance and the kind of damage/losses suffered on both side.
Sadly archive.org has not the document of Kriegsmarine war diary for February 1944.

NB-11  and NB-12    nothing.

NB-13. As said previously, fighting (with PC-2) on 9 October 1944 against Angelina caused 3 KIA and 9 POW among germans and partisans suffered 2 WIA (wounded were on NB-13 only?) . There are detail of size-weaponery-cargo of ship Angelina? The Angelina is reported sunk: was sunk with gunfire or captured and then destroyed?
Also the pair of partisan boats captured shortly after the  Adriana, i've read in some report defined as a yacht (or former yacht): there are detail about this other victory? (once again, enemy losses, pow, details of cargo etc...)
German war diary gives complicated data: on 10 october it reports  "During the battle of PTboats on the evening of 8 October off Maestre, the own harbor defense vessel which had been beached with battle damages and one motor coaster got lost".
But then on 13 october it reports that "On 9 October  an auxiliary sailing vessel was sunk by seven enemy gunboats in Porto Cassione (Veglia). On 10 Oct. another auxiliary sailing vessel was taken in prize by gunboats at the same place".
I guess the loss of Angelina&Adriana was the second event.


NB-14 and NB-15 nothing new.

NB Partizanka. I've not exactly understood the purpose/service of this unit. Was some kind of "command-ship"?
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« Reply #21 on: October 04, 2013, 09:54:57 am »

I must correct my self. PČ-7 and PČ-8 was compensation for NB-13 sunk by allied planes.

NB-10

This ship was ambushed and sunk by German I-boots I-72, I-73 and I-106 in the night of 8/9.02.1944. I cant find any report on casualties on both sides.

NB-13

Angelina was grounded and later set on fire, and Adriana was captured. Both ships are mentioned as armed sailing ships with auxiliary engine.

NB Partizanka

This was a yacht before the war. After the fall of Italy she was used, mainly, for transport, and later as yacht for Partisans HQ.
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lupodimare89
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« Reply #22 on: October 12, 2013, 02:06:06 pm »

here we are again x3
after a little break i've started to keep an eye of that German war diary and i've think that to explore the other events involving PC boats (and other unclear units) it's better following the timeline. I write in italic what i found on an old post forum (axishistory).


"  First days of October 1943
First days of october- armed ship of Brac flotilla attacked SS Rab near Makarska "

From anoter forum post, i've found:     NB-9 "Biokovac"
opened fire on which the p / b "Rab" returned the gunfire. Our coastline
battery from Sucuraj also opened fire on the p / b "Rab". However, due to
stronger weapons and more high-speed p / b "Rab" is lost in the darkness.
Question:  it's known the date of the event? Also some detail if RAB got some kind of damage? I've found nothing on German sources.


"  5  October 1943
Two patrol boats of Southdalmatian flotilla repeled 6 rubber boats and MSB from landing on Peljesac peninsula  "

(from a forum). It's known if they were PC boats? I've found nothing from German side.


"    18/19  October 1943
Patrol boats of Command of Navy for Croatian littoral and of Coastal Command for North Dalmatia attacked three times(by Ilovik, Silba and Ist) MSB Merkur that was on line Pula-Zadar  "

Once again from forum, and once again i found nothing on German side and no detail which partisan units were involved.


This one it's an interesting description from the german KTB:
"War diary: report of 20october.
At the barrage gap at Asinello an auxiliary sailing vessel had engagement vs armed auxiliary sailing vessel. Then shelled by shore near Serle lighthouse and again attacked by two auxiliary sailing vessels near Isto.
The vessel put in Pola with causalities. "

I've copied it word-by-word.
I've not exactly understood the first to mention of name locations, also i don't know if "Isto" it's a mistake for "Ist" island.
There are reports of partisan actions the night of 19/20 October or day of 20 October?


not-engagement related but confirmations from the War diary:
confirmation of loss of DEA MARCELLA (steamer) due artillery fire on 30 September 1943, further details: crew saved
confirmation of damages due coastal artillery on steamers on 26 October against ships  GOFFREDO MAMELLI and MARKO (not Marco). differently from a forum post, the German war diary gives details of heavy human losses: at first is reported on 27 October about 12 KIA and 25 WIA, then both ships are reported by Germans to have been again shelled by partisan artillery, and that MARKO returned at Pola (report of 28 October) with 14 KIA and 40 WIA.



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« Reply #23 on: October 13, 2013, 12:58:48 pm »

"  First days of October 1943
First days of october- armed ship of Brac flotilla attacked SS Rab near Makarska "

From anoter forum post, i've found:     NB-9 "Biokovac"
opened fire on which the p / b "Rab" returned the gunfire. Our coastline
battery from Sucuraj also opened fire on the p / b "Rab". However, due to
stronger weapons and more high-speed p / b "Rab" is lost in the darkness.
Question:  it's known the date of the event? Also some detail if RAB got some kind of damage? I've found nothing on German sources.

On the 01.10.1943. SS Rab sailed from Metković to Split with 1. Croatian ( NDH) naval detachment on board. When ship was around Makarska, they spotted red flare and at that moment whole canal become  alive. In the documents they mentioned that Partisans were shooting at ship with everything, including MG and rifles from shore and islands, and that there was: "..few boats with MG on board that come close to ship..." There is no record on casulties on both sides.

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« Reply #24 on: October 13, 2013, 06:13:11 pm »

"  5  October 1943
Two patrol boats of Southdalmatian flotilla repeled 6 rubber boats and MSB from landing on Peljesac peninsula  "

(from a forum). It's known if they were PC boats? I've found nothing from German side.

In the evening of the 05.10.1943 PČ-61, with another PČ from Pelješka flotiila, repeld attempted landing by 6 rubber boats and MSB Sv.Franjo near little port of Drače. During the fight, MSB was damaged and, according to our documents, there was 8 KIA and 5 WIA on MSB.
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lupodimare89
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« Reply #25 on: October 15, 2013, 10:01:36 am »

Quote
"  5  October 1943
Two patrol boats of Southdalmatian flotilla repeled 6 rubber boats and MSB from landing on Peljesac peninsula  "
(from a forum). It's known if they were PC boats? I've found nothing from German side.
In the evening of the 05.10.1943 PČ-61, with another PČ from Pelješka flotiila, repeld attempted landing by 6 rubber boats and MSB Sv.Franjo near little port of Drače. During the fight, MSB was damaged and, according to our documents, there was 8 KIA and 5 WIA on MSB.
It was this event? I've also wrote that such attack against Sv.Franjo happened on November, not October, by this same forum list.
This could easily be a mistake/repetition i guess, so the correct data it's October right?


No guessing about that German report for 20 October? Or at least if such locations are actually in Croat islands.. i guess that the italianized names could have been used for some time by the Germans.
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« Reply #26 on: October 15, 2013, 10:05:21 am »

Quote
"  5  October 1943
Two patrol boats of Southdalmatian flotilla repeled 6 rubber boats and MSB from landing on Peljesac peninsula  "
(from a forum). It's known if they were PC boats? I've found nothing from German side.
In the evening of the 05.10.1943 PČ-61, with another PČ from Pelješka flotiila, repeld attempted landing by 6 rubber boats and MSB Sv.Franjo near little port of Drače. During the fight, MSB was damaged and, according to our documents, there was 8 KIA and 5 WIA on MSB.
It was this event? I've also wrote that such attack against Sv.Franjo happened on November, not October, by this same forum list.
This could easily be a mistake/repetition i guess, so the correct data it's October right?

That is right. There is no mentioning what hapened later. I can only assume that Sv.Franjo managed to escape from PČs and was attacked again in november in some other action.
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lupodimare89
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« Reply #27 on: October 15, 2013, 08:34:37 pm »

Wait but... here  http://www.paluba.info/smf/index.php/topic,1216.0.html
you wrote of November, not October...
Quote
U sastavu Korčulanske flotile V POS.Noću 5/6.11.1943.pred ušćem Neretve,napao mitraljeskom vatrom i ručnim bombama motorni jedrenjak Sv.Franjo,na kojem je ubijeno 8,a ranjeno 5 članova posade.Potopljen od nemačkih aviona 27.12.1943. kod Hvara.
In the end... the battle that caused 8kia and 5wia was on November so?
Still a bit confused, sorry v.v
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« Reply #28 on: October 21, 2013, 01:58:56 pm »

Wait but... here  http://www.paluba.info/smf/index.php/topic,1216.0.html
you wrote of November, not October...
Quote
U sastavu Korčulanske flotile V POS.Noću 5/6.11.1943.pred ušćem Neretve,napao mitraljeskom vatrom i ručnim bombama motorni jedrenjak Sv.Franjo,na kojem je ubijeno 8,a ranjeno 5 članova posade.Potopljen od nemačkih aviona 27.12.1943. kod Hvara.
In the end... the battle that caused 8kia and 5wia was on November so?
Still a bit confused, sorry v.v

Crap...

I cant help you with this. Actually I cant help to my self about this becouse those two dates are in different documents regarding same ships PČ-61 and Sv.Franjo.
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lupodimare89
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« Reply #29 on: October 22, 2013, 02:38:30 pm »

No problem, here what we can do:

If the two sources are two books, you could check who's the older book. And maybe if the modern one used the older as reference (making a mistake).

Also could help a little work of checking the whole background,  we know location is Peljesac. Germans departed from Metkovic. Location should be in "front of Drace harbor".
Should be surely some book or source even online that could tell if Germans had landed and took that place for early October or early November.
After all during such offensive the Germans repelled the partisans from almost all the islands. I will get back on the German KTB to see if it mentions at least landing operation there for October and November, hoping to solve this little mystery.
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