Za i protiv izgradnje nosača aviona

[Milan (longtrip)]

Od nosača aviona do mobilnog aerodromskog kompleksa

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[kumbor]

Nova fotka hipotetičkog ruskog NA. Vide se dva nadgrađa nalik novom NA RN. Vide se i dva dimnjaka, dakle navodno pogon klasični. Posle medijske frtutme pre godinu-dve, stavr je legla. NA za Rusiju trenutno nisu prioritet. Biće, ali negde posle 2020., kad "Kuza" očigledno bude zreo za zamenu.

[Milan (longtrip)]

Изгледа да је тежиште стављено на нешто друго , имајући у виду друга решења . Бар сам ја тако схватио из овог писанија тамо. Ово је ваљда једна америчка идеја

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[kumbor]

Zanimljivo. Liči na nekakav potisni sastav sa Dunava. Ipak, NA je danas, a i u bližoj/daljoj budućnosti predodređen da bude BROD, a ne tamo neka "samohodna plovna konstrukcija" Ovo sa ilustracije bi se definitivno raspalo na sastavne delove otprilike na moru 3. Kako na takvom plovnom sredstvu obezbediti sistemnu BOB? Kako bi se ponašala na jačem moru, jer prirodu još niko nije zaje***? Dune vetar, dignu se valovi? Da ne govorimo o tome kako bi se takva "konstrukcija" branila, i čime. Za zaštitu jedne UGNA potrebna je cela eskadra, a za ovo?

[Bozo13]

Zar nije to trabalo bit na principu lego kockica? i da je svako zasebno celina?

[kumbor]

Zar nije to trabalo bit na principu lego kockica? i da je svako zasebno celina?

Uvaženi Boštjan! Lego je Lego. Svi to znamo! A brod je BROD. Brod je celina, inače nije brod, već plovni sastav, plovno sredstvo, ili nešto četvrto/dvadeseto, čemu tek treba dati ime. Na primer poletno-sletna staza/paluba, ona mora biti integralna celina, pre svega iz fizičkih,pa onda iz svih drugih razloga. Udarna opterećenja pri poletanju/sletanju su ionako znatno veća na NA, nego kod istih postupaka na kopnu. A tek na takvoj "fleksibilnoj" plovnoj konstrukciji!!!???

[Bozo13]

Ok, nije brod več koncept  Joint Mobile Offshore Base (JMOB) sa strane US Department of Defense.

The Joint Mobile Offshore Base (JMOB) will enhance the ability of the United States to provide logistical support for the projection of power and aid worldwide. At the same time, it will lend greater security to the men and women on it. And compared with traditional land bases, this moveable, reusable investment is not subject to the politics of other nations, enabling military equipment to be pre-positioned in the theater of interest within 30 days nearly anywhere in the world.

McDermott performed an extensive evaluation of the JMOB concept for the Naval Surface Warfare Center under sponsorship by the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) and Office of Naval Research (ONR) using offshore oil production and construction technology. Hydrodynamic tests of a 1/60-scale model were completed to confirm naval architecture and motion calculations for a variety of sea states. These tests verified the feasibility of design methods. The conceptual design has been model tested for validity as well as verifying the unit’s performance through analytical and simulation methods.
In transit, each vessel will be able to operate independently, deballasted onto its ship-shaped lower hulls for propulsion efficiency. On reaching an operational theater, the units can be ballasted to a deeper draft, submerging the lower hulls so that only the columns, supporting the upper hull, are exposed to the sea. This greatly reduces the motion of each module. The modules will then be connected at the upper hull to form a full JMOB unit and to allow some relative motion between units. The individual modules are substantially identical. All have power generation, propulsion, control, cargo handling, and air traffic control systems and are capable of completely independent operation. This multiple system redundancy allows military operations to begin with one module on station and permits smaller operations to be performed with less than a full JMOB. Five individual single-base units, each 1,000 feet long, connected together can form a one-mile floating runway 500 feet wide and 120 feet above the ocean surface.

I Kinezi razmišljaju u tom smjeru

China’s Next Big Military Project Could Involve a Floating Airbase

You read that right- we’re not talking about an aircraft carrier but rather a gargantuan floating airbase. The concept has been around for years upon years, going as far back as the Second World War, when Allied nations originally conspired to build a gigantic aircraft carrier under the auspices of Project Habakkuk. The plan fell through, mostly because airbase/airfield accessibility increased greatly in the latter years of the war, and technological advancements increased the range of land-based aircraft enough that air-to-ground strike missions could be launched successfully from longer distances. The idea didn’t perish with Habakkuk, however. Even as the United States entered into Operation Desert Shield in the early 1990s, the concept of a joint mobile offshore base (JMOB) still floated around the Pentagon as a solution to staging fighter and attack aircraft in international waters, though still within striking distance of foreign targets. The underlying reasoning behind building such an offshore base was primarily political in nature- securing the permission of Middle Eastern nations bordering Iraq and Kuwait for the use of their airports and air bases as forward operating airfields for coalition aircraft wouldn’t have been very easy at all. Built on semi-submersible pontoons in modules, the JMOB would be floated into position anywhere in the world and fully operational within 30 days. A floating base the size of a small town, able to embark fighters, airlifters (such as the C-17 Globemaster III) and stage battalion-sized elements of infantry units, as well as operate as a logistics hub is one hell of a way to project power.

For a country like China, which possesses broad and expansive military goals, exploring the creation of a set of Very Large Floating Structures (VLFS) in the vein of the original JMOB concept might not be such a bad idea. At the moment, with the ambition of increasing muscle in the South China Sea, especially near Taiwan and Vietnam, China has begun the process of building artificial islands that essentially function as large immovable aircraft carriers; especially needed since no country in the region seems to be very open to allowing China the use of their airfields and air bases. On top of that, the Chinese government has made it known that they are also due to commission a pair of aircraft carriers similar to the Russian carrier Admiral Kuznetsov within the coming eight to nine years, both adding to their power projection capabilities. So that in itself might actually nullify the need for a VLFS, which, of course, comes with its own set of downsides. They’re big targets, for one. All it would take for a floating base of the sort to be rendered ineffective and inoperable is for one anti-shipping missile, or one torpedo, or even one smart bomb to meet its mark. While using modules as the core foundation of the base would likely serve to hasten repair and recovery efforts in the event of such an attack, the logistics of removing the crippled modules from the structure, floating another few in and then integrating them would be an almost herculean task for a navy such as the People’s Liberation Army Navy. Keeping a base of the size functional and in-operation is also not a very easy proposition either. And most importantly, they’re only useful in and around wartime. Maintaining such a structure for extended periods during peacetime just makes it the equivalent of an oversized money pit floating around the South China Sea.

Assuming China does actually go ahead with the project, their mobile base(s) will likely feature a runway with a sizable apron/ramp, a set of hangars for the storage of aircraft, the ability launch and recover Xian Y-20 strategic airlifters (essentially the Chinese version of a C-141 Starlifter or a C-17 Globemaster III), and any fighter in the People’s Liberation Army Air Force’s fleet, including the supposedly fifth-generation Shenyang J-31 and the Chengdu J-20. Additionally, it wouldn’t be too outlandish to expect that the structure would be capable of deploying hovercraft and landing-type vessels that can embark a contingent of amphibious assault troops as well.

Znači nije baš brod, a uz to neke vrste je nosač aviona

[kumbor]

E, ovako kako je objašnjeno, to je već nešto drugo! "Joint mobile offshore base". Dakle, možda je samopokretna onoliko koliko je pokretna npr. LDI-18 u Boki. Ima neki pogon da može da se pomeri na kratke relacije, npr. sa Pristana u Bijelu, ali ne da plovi preko mora iz tačke A u tačku B. Moreplovnost kategorije "0" (moja definicija i moja kategorizacija).

[MOTORISTA]

[kumbor]

Ma u ovom gornjem španskom klipu su svašta pobrkali. "Sovjetski savez"? - Uljanovsk, i koncepciju palube i pramac i 3D radare tipa Billboarda i neke PAK-FA mornaričke, i svašta drugo.

[Milan (longtrip)]

Meni se čini da ste propustili ovaj tekst za koji sam ostavio link u prvom postu sa tom fotografijom "platforme". Da ponovim :

От авианосца к морскому мобильному аэродромному комплексу

http://topwar.ru

[Bozo13]

Pogledao slike, ali mi je Ruski (i Beloruski) slabija strana. A sa onim Rusima (Belorusima) sa kojim sarađujem, govore Engleski, tako da nisam imao potrebe da naučim.

[Milan (longtrip)]

Ja sam silom prilika morao malo da naučim, ali za prevođenje ovakvih tekstova nemam znanja niti vladam tom tematikom. Ostaje samo ako postoje zainteresovani za prevod,da molimo @kumbora ako ima vremena i volje da rasvetli šta tamo piše 

[kumbor]

Sam tekst je znatno kraći,a daleko više je komentara na forumu ispod. Ukratko, u današnje vreme i u bližoj budućnosti (10 god.) ruskoj mornarici NA nije prioritet. "Brodarski" institut imeni Krilova kao ozbiljna institucija razvija mnoge idejne varijante mogućeg NA za Rusiju. Mišljenja se shode da samo pravi teški udarni NA može biti rešenje u skorije vreme. D oko 100.000t i oko 100 letelica. Samo takav NA može obezbediti potrebnu operativnu gipkost. Međutim, za gradnju takvog broda ne postoje dokovi, ostali brodograđevni kapaciteti, a nema ni iskustva kakvo imaju Amerikanci. Takav brod ne može koštati manje od 10-12Mlrd US$, dakle otprilike kao ceo program gradnje 8 APSN pr.955 "Borej". Tekst ne daje odgovor na dilemu kakav alternativni, principijalno novi i "asimetrični" plovni objekt može biti rešenje. Jedna od ideja je pomenuti modularni brod - u osnovi američka ideja. Dakle, reč je o skupu uslovno rečeno "brodova", od kojih svaki ima svoju energetiku i adekvatnu moreplovnost. Brzina modula oko 14čv. Materijal trupa može biti ferocement!  Trup je po principu SWA - Small waterplane area, malog gaza, male oplakane površine, sa mogućnošću naplavljivanja radi postizanja potrebnog gaza. Grupa takvih "modula" dolazi u rejon baziranja, a tamo se 1. trupovi naplavljuju i gaz povećava; 2. trupovi se spajaju u pomenuti JMOB. Orijentaciono vreme "sklapanja" nadgradnje mesec dana. (Ovo mi uopšte nije jasno, jer  kako misle da montiraju hangare i PSS za tako kratko vreme, kako bi se elementi nadgradnje (delovi hangara i PSS) dopremili u rejon baziranja, posebno u vreme krize, da ne pominjem uslove sukoba). Kako bi se obezbedilo sklapanje i operativnost centralnog komandnog punkta (BOC/BOS) za tako kratko vreme,a takođe modula senzora i veze celog JMOB. Za odbranu takvog objekta potrebno je stalno prisustvo cele eskadre brodova i odreda podmornica + sopstvena avijacija JMOB. Sklopljeni JMOB nije "moreplovan" i samo uslovno je pokretan (baš kako sam i pretpostavio). Kompjuterski modeli pokazuju da sklopljeni JMOB, ogromnog ukupnog D i velikog gaza može istrpeti "prilično visoka stanja mora" - po analogiji sa naftnim platformama. (!?) U ovo ja čisto sumnjam, ali ako bi se obezbedio D od oko 1.000.000 tona ili više, što nije nemoguće (najveći supertankeri imaju nosivost skoro pola od toga), možda bi se obezbedilo očuvanje celine konstrukcije do stanja mora npr. 6. Šta bi se dogodilo u uslovima tropske oluje (more 9, vetar 10 i više) ja ne mogu da pretpostavim.

Forumska diskusija je zanimljiva, ali rasplinuta.

Zaključak

Ovo je zanimljiva ideja, ali mi se ne čini naročito realnom.


ALTERNATIVA IZ VREMENA SSSR, IZNETA NA RUSKOM FORUMU

U maštovitom romanu iz vremena SSSR izlaže se hipoteza da puk Tu-22M Backfire raketama napadne bazu NATO Keflavik na zapadu Islanda i pošteno je izbombarduje munjevitom akcijom (tada nije postojala PRO od raketa H-22 Backfirea). Istovremeno bi se kontejnerskim ili brodom/brodovima za prevoz barži iz Severnog ledenog okeana prikrao brod/brodovi sa velikim hoverkraftima i desantom. Pošto bi Keflavik već bio lišen adekvatne odbrane, desant bi relativno lako ovladao Keflavikom. SSSR osvaja Island i širi oblast dejstva hiljade milja duboko u Atlantik bez sopstvenih  NA i podmornica. Dakle - Island pada, GIUK lanac (Grenland-Island-Škotska) puca, a sa njim pada i ceo koncept odbrane NATO na Atlantiku. Zatim se divizioni jurišnih podmornica Severne flote neometano probijaju u Atlantik, šetaju se i dovršavaju posao topeći raketama i torpedima američke NA i "koljući" nekažnjeno šta stignu.  Ovo je zanimljivo kao akcioni triler i možda je bilo umereno moguće osamdesetih godina, ali danas svakako više nije.

[kumbor]

Šta je GIUK-gap, az one koji ne znaju, evo projekcije.