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Author Topic: Posao veka - Nabavka F 104 Starfighter za NATO  (Read 17623 times)
 
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Perun
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« Reply #45 on: August 14, 2019, 05:30:04 am »

Koliko sam uspija naci na internetu talijanski F-104S su najcesce nosili jednu AIM-7 i jednu AIM-9 raketu. Dok su koristeni kao lovci zbog opreme su morali skidati top. Takodjer radar je ima mali domet. Sve u svemu jako ogranicen avion. Zna li netko kakve taktike su koristili talijani? Kako bi ih koristili protiv nas
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Љуба
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« Reply #46 on: August 14, 2019, 11:24:45 pm »

Koliko sam uspija naci na internetu talijanski F-104S su najcesce nosili jednu AIM-7 i jednu AIM-9 raketu. Dok su koristeni kao lovci zbog opreme su morali skidati top. Takodjer radar je ima mali domet. Sve u svemu jako ogranicen avion. Zna li netko kakve taktike su koristili talijani? Kako bi ih koristili protiv nas
Ne znam kako si uspija na internetu naći tu kombinaciju sa jednom AIM-7 i jednom AIM-9, ali ti treba odati priznanje.

* F-104asa.jpg (480.87 KB. 1200x829 - viewed 15 times.)

Možda zato što si gledao samo jednu stranu.


* F-104s.jpg (89.86 KB. 950x622 - viewed 13 times.)

eto kad se gleda sa druge strane, mogu se uočiti te rakete.


* F-104s-missile.jpg (63.13 KB. 843x323 - viewed 13 times.)

No kako bilo, italijanski "Starfajteri" su bili poslednja modifikacija i ujedno najuspešnija.
Taktika za ove avine se deli u tri poglavlja, jer su korišćeni kao presretači i lovci u sistemu PVO, ali i kao jurišnici u okviru lovačko bombarderskih zadataka.
Sve u svemu, to je taktika NATO avijacije.

Radar:  NASARR R-21G/M1 Setter - (FIAR, F-1) Radar, Radar, FCR, Air-to-Air & Air-to-Surface, Short-Range, Max range: 55.6 km
Omogućavao je gađanje vođenim raketama "Aspide Mk.1" u režimu "dole".

Što se tiče rivalskog radara na MiG-21bis, odnosno radara "RP-21 Sapfir", on je mogao da otkrije cilj veličine lovca na daljini 20 km.

Љуба

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fazan
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« Reply #47 on: August 15, 2019, 03:42:40 am »

Мислим да је основни проблем овог авиона била његова брзина. И код Канађана и код Немаца, ови авиони су заменили Canadair Sabre/F-86. Са 1100 kmh су прешли на 2400 kmh. Добили су чистокрвне пресретаче а покушали да их користе као универзалне ловце/ловце-бомбардере.
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Perun
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« Reply #48 on: August 15, 2019, 05:02:12 am »

Koliko sam uspija naci na internetu talijanski F-104S su najcesce nosili jednu AIM-7 i jednu AIM-9 raketu. Dok su koristeni kao lovci zbog opreme su morali skidati top. Takodjer radar je ima mali domet. Sve u svemu jako ogranicen avion. Zna li netko kakve taktike su koristili talijani? Kako bi ih koristili protiv nas
Ne znam kako si uspija na internetu naći tu kombinaciju sa jednom AIM-7 i jednom AIM-9, ali ti treba odati priznanje.
[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ]
Možda zato što si gledao samo jednu stranu.

[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ]
eto kad se gleda sa druge strane, mogu se uočiti te rakete.

[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ]
No kako bilo, italijanski "Starfajteri" su bili poslednja modifikacija i ujedno najuspešnija.
Taktika za ove avine se deli u tri poglavlja, jer su korišćeni kao presretači i lovci u sistemu PVO, ali i kao jurišnici u okviru lovačko bombarderskih zadataka.
Sve u svemu, to je taktika NATO avijacije.

Radar:  NASARR R-21G/M1 Setter - (FIAR, F-1) Radar, Radar, FCR, Air-to-Air & Air-to-Surface, Short-Range, Max range: 55.6 km
Omogućavao je gađanje vođenim raketama "Aspide Mk.1" u režimu "dole".

Što se tiče rivalskog radara na MiG-21bis, odnosno radara "RP-21 Sapfir", on je mogao da otkrije cilj veličine lovca na daljini 20 km.

Љуба

Naisa sam i ja na te slike i na podatke kako su nosili do cetiri rakete i o radaru velikog dometa ali to je sve  za poziranje. Sto se tice dometa radara to je za velike ciljeve dok je lovce moga otkriti na 30 km u savrsenim uvjetima. Zbog male kolicine goriva ima je mali domet ako nije nosija vanjske tankove. Evo sto sam nasa za naoruzanje:


« Last Edit: August 15, 2019, 05:19:54 am by Perun » Logged
Perun
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« Reply #49 on: August 15, 2019, 05:23:54 am »

F-104S were build in two variants: the CIO with missiles and no gun and the CBO with gun and no missiles but bombs only.

The S could carry only two kind of Missiles: AIM-7F Sparrow (only on BL105 external pylons) and AIM-9B, only in the last year of service, that was 1989 a few were given AIM-9L instead.

Standard configuration was 1 Sparrow and 1 Sidewinder and that was used for QRA service.

To intercept strategic bombers or MiG-25 configuration was 2 Sparrows at BL105 and 2 Fuel tanks at wing tips

War configuration was with 4 missiles: 2 Sidewinder at wingtips, 2 Sparrows at BL104 and 2 fuel tanks at BL75. Underbelly pylons BL22 were never cleared for use even if each Squadron got those pylons and use to play with them during airshows. There are a few photos of BL22 in flight but with no missiles attached to them.

By 1989 all S has been retired from service and converted into S-ASA.

The ASA replaced the Bravo with the Lima and the Sparrow with the Aspide.

During mid '90s the Italian Air force was short of wing tips fuel tanks so the use of fuel tanks at BL75 and Sidewinders at wingtips become more common. Mind that to use AIM-9L at wingtips the F-104 needed two kinds of launchers: Red Dog attached to wing and LAU-7 attached to Red Dog.

But the 104 was tricky to fly without wing tip tanks, so, after a few crashes, more tanks were produced and the use of wing tip missiles forbidden by the end of the Nineties.

36-0 showed here above was the only one known to be loaded with 6 missiles and it never flew that way, it was out of service during the airshow so it was used to scare Ivan, later it come back to service as 36-03 without the BL22 pylons.
NODA and (later) 18°Gruppo were an exception: this new unit was reformed due to the crisis with Libya and equipped with F-104S (later ASA) bombers that become free with the introduction of the Tornado. So these few F-104 kept the gun and could not carry Sparrow or Aspide. These were often see flying with 4 AIM-9L: 2 at wing tips and 2 at BL105.

I just wrote a book to clarify all these matters and hope it will go to printers this year. :woot.gif:/>

Edited February 22, 2016 by Paolo Maglio[quote

http://www.arcforums.com/forums/air/index.php?/topic/291095-italian-f-104s-air-defense-loadout/
« Last Edit: August 15, 2019, 05:41:37 am by Perun » Logged
Perun
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« Reply #50 on: August 15, 2019, 05:29:08 am »


* 1391591129-2854779248.jpg (76.34 KB. 1024x683 - viewed 18 times.)

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Perun
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« Reply #51 on: August 15, 2019, 05:32:50 am »

Koliko ja vidim nije bas nacickan raketama. Mozda da preokrenem sliku cetiri puta Smiley
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Perun
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« Reply #52 on: August 15, 2019, 05:39:48 am »

I forgot to mention the ASA-M variant.

Only 49 single seaters were upgraded to this latest variant and all were pure interceptors without the gun.

The could carry both Aspide and Lima but the Aspide was retired from service by early 2000 since it was found to actually have almost the same range as the Lima due to the fact that the radar had a too short range for the missile!

So in the last 4 years of service a couple of AIM-9L was the only armament available for the Italian Starfighters almost the same (2 x AIM-9B) as was used by F-104G AWX in the mid Sixties!

http://www.arcforums.com/forums/air/index.php?/topic/291095-italian-f-104s-air-defense-loadout/
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Perun
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« Reply #53 on: August 15, 2019, 12:53:35 pm »


* F-104ACvn.png (1355.26 KB. 1505x997 - viewed 17 times.)

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kumbor
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« Reply #54 on: August 15, 2019, 01:01:15 pm »



Авион је био брз, са високим плафоном лета, али та малецка крилца нису давала добре маневарске способности. МиГ-21 га је могао изманеврисати како је хтео, нарочито Бис, Ракете АИМ-7 су му давале предност, као и нешто бољи радар.
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Perun
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« Reply #55 on: August 15, 2019, 07:25:53 pm »

Teoretski su mu rakete davale prednost ali u stvarnosti ga je ogranicava radar tako da osim sporih bombardera tesko da bi moga lovca pogoditi sa AIM-7F ili Aspideom, pogotovo ako je neprijateljski lovac zna za F-104
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Perun
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« Reply #56 on: August 17, 2019, 07:32:45 am »


* aim-9b italian.JPG (68.38 KB. 640x396 - viewed 10 times.)

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Љуба
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« Reply #57 on: August 19, 2019, 08:54:03 am »

Teoretski su mu rakete davale prednost ali u stvarnosti ga je ogranicava radar tako da osim sporih bombardera tesko da bi moga lovca pogoditi sa AIM-7F ili Aspideom, pogotovo ako je neprijateljski lovac zna za F-104
Možda si zaboravio na ovaj stav na samom početku teme:

MINIJATURE HLADNOG RATA 11:
Posao (XX) veka  - Nabavka F 104 Starfighter za NATO, korupcijski skandal koji je potresao Evropu

Ovaj lovački avion, je bio jedan od retkih koji je podelio vojnu i civilnu stručnu populaciju oko njegove vrednosti. Pojedini poklonici su se divili njegovoj prefinjenoj eleganiciji (među njima i koautoru članka), dok su ga drugi smatrali neuspelim projektom.



Ti svakako ne spadaš u grupu "poklonika" koji mu se dive. Sve je stvar ukusa i opredeljenja za jednu ili drugu stranu.


* first_F-104S.jpg (87.79 KB. 605x834 - viewed 10 times.)

First F-104S for the Aeronautica Militare Italiana
(AMI) (5-41 of 5° Stormo 'Giuseppe Cenni').
Beginning in 1968 AMI began receiving the F-104S,
the final version of the Starfighter. The first
lockheed-modified F-104S advanced all-purpose
Starfighter was flown in December 1966 and Fiatbuilt
246 F-104Ss for the AMI and the Turk Hava
Kuvvetleri (THK, Turkish Air Force). Lockheed

Љуба

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Perun
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« Reply #58 on: August 21, 2019, 12:38:22 am »

Lipo on izgleda, sto je je, ali smatram da nije za borbu protiv lovaca. Ako netko smatra da sam u krivu bilo bi mi drago da ukaze na to. Naravno ne zbog same rasprave nego zato jer me stvarno zanima  tema
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fazan
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« Reply #59 on: August 21, 2019, 02:40:18 am »

Једини сукоб са Миг-21 је имао за време индијско-пакистанских ратова и Миг-21 је био победник: https://us.blastingnews.com/world/2016/08/combat-between-the-us-f-104-and-russian-mig-21-001052729.html
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