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Author Topic: Tenk M-84  (Read 1866364 times)
 
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StefanK
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« Reply #6345 on: January 12, 2022, 07:58:43 pm »

Ah, I found another document. It should be correct like this: OFF -> SYSTEM -> ELECTRONIC (sequentiell)

So then do these operating modes arise?

1. ELECTRONIC ON - Mechanical Mode
2. Loosen SYSTEM ON and hand crank vertically - Half Automatic Mode (Half Stab)
3. GYRO BLOCK ON and after minimal 0,5 minutes STAB ON - Full Stab Mode (Full Automatic)
« Last Edit: January 12, 2022, 08:24:00 pm by StefanK » Logged
StefanK
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« Reply #6346 on: January 12, 2022, 08:46:02 pm »

correction:
2. SYSTEM ON and loosen hand crank vertically - Half Automatic Mode (Half Stab)
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Vladimir Ivanović
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Da sam nomalan, poludio bih.


« Reply #6347 on: January 12, 2022, 08:59:16 pm »

Na slici imaš puno grešaka. A žalosmo je to što je to neko tako nacrtao i izgriješio, a najžalosnije što je iz toga neko nešto učio.

Ako si našao onu doktorsku disertaciju o kojoj si pričao, baci je u smeće, jer je samo za smeće. A najžalosnije je da taj predaje negdje, a o sistemu je samo čitao. Kao i ti. A najžalosnije je to što taj uči pitomce tenku na Vojnoj akademiji.

Uključenje sistema
Or so: OFF -> ELECTRONIC  -> SYSTEM  (sequential)

[ Attachment: You are not allowed to view attachments ]

Za JNA je bila jedna šema sistema SUV, a za Kuvajt i druge države je bila drugačija šema. A ti si te razlike stavio na jedan crtež.
Ponovo pogledaj moj video, tu su ti odgovori na sva pitanja.




Ako je ovaj što je napisao ovu doktorsku disertaciju predavač na Vonoj akademiji, onda je to žalostan slučaj.

A sjećam se kad sam radio na obuci Kuvajćana u Zagrebu 1989/1990 u Školskom centru z Zagrebu. Bili smo tu ja i tri kapetana. Jedan je sakupio neka upustva i napravio udžbenik za učenje sistema, umro je ubrzo nakon što smo završili kurs, drugi je bio kapetan Vladimir. Ne sjećam se prezimena. Cvrk ili Cvik. Kaže da je prvi put vidio tenk u krugu kasarne u Zagrebu i trebao da predaje neke teme o tenku, a sam kaže da pojma nema o tenku. Zadni put sam ga vidio na TV-u u oktobru 1991 godine u HV-u u nekom izvještavanju iz Osijeka. Treći je bio kasniji general i pomoćnik Ministra odbrane SRJ i VSiCG.. Predavao je čisto nabubane lekcije (naučene napamet, bez razumijevanja). Po raspadu SRJ je kao Crnogorac napustio vojsku. Sreo sam ga 1994 godine u Tehničkoj upravi. Ja došao kod njega zbog toga što je tu bio referent za tenk M84, a on dan ranije prebačen da radi na agregatima. I meni se je žalio da nema pojma o agregatima, a o tenku je makar nešto znao. Magistarski rad mu je bio o sistemu upravljanja vatrom tenka M84.

 https://vpsbeograd.edu.rs/professors_vps/%D0%B4%D1%80-%D0%B1%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%BA%D0%BE-%D1%92%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B8%D1%9B/

Sjećam se kad je Kuvajćanima predavao hidrauliku tenka govorio je "radni fluid". Ja mu više puta govorio da koristi izraz ulje mjesto radni fluid. A on odgovarao da se nauka ne može pojednostavljivati.

Prevodios za arapski je izraz "radni fluid" prevodio kao "zejt" (zejtin, ulje).

I kao što su nekad u JNA prebacivali po potrebe službe bez puno razmišljanja, tako izgleda rade i sada u VJ.

Itd, itd.

Pozdrav

Vlado


* DSCN5585.jpg (3110.13 KB, 4320x3240 - viewed 14 times.)
« Last Edit: January 12, 2022, 09:04:34 pm by Vladimir Ivanović » Logged
StefanK
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« Reply #6348 on: January 12, 2022, 09:15:26 pm »

Very interesting information.  But unfortunately they don't help me.
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StefanK
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« Reply #6349 on: January 13, 2022, 11:38:32 am »

But what else I wanted to say. I only took the block diagrams for the fire control system from the controversial dissertation. But these are from the official manual of the army. And that is why they cannot be faulty.
I am of course aware that there are different modifications. But the underlying functional principle is certainly the same for everyone. And whether you say hidraulički fluid or radni fluid or ulja, that is not incorrect at any rate.

That is why my question is focused on the basic functionality. I will point out modifications if this really brings other functions for the operator.

(I also know the age-old quarrel between commanders and technicians. The technicians: If the commanders weren't constantly destroying everything, the tanks would always be in very good condition.  Cool )
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Vladimir Ivanović
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Da sam nomalan, poludio bih.


« Reply #6350 on: January 13, 2022, 01:40:46 pm »

[ Attachment: You are not allowed to view attachments ]
Crvena lampica na komandnom bloku pokazuje samo da je uključena pumpa azimuta. Ne pokazuje da li je uključena pumpa elevacije.

Uslov za uključenje pumpe azimuta je:
1. Spušten poklopac vozača
2. Odblokirana kupola
3. Uključen prekidač Sistem na komandnom bloku.
Tada će se upaliti crvena lampica na komandnom bloku.

Uslov za uključenje pumpe elevacijeje:
mehanizam za uključenje pumpe elevacije na ručnom mehanizmu za davanje nagiba topu (mehanizam za ručno pokretanje topa) u gornjem položaju.

Prekidač na komandnom bloku nišandžije top/mitraljez na ovoj verziji sistema vrši samo odabir balistike u računaru. Balistika topa ili balistika mitraljeza. Na nekim drugim verzijama sistema (nije za JNA) sa ovim se prekidačem onemogućava opaljenje iz topa ako je odabrana balistika mitraljeza i obrnuto.


The red lamp on the gunner's handle shows that only azymuth pump is turned on. It doesn't show that elevation pump is on.

The conditions for turning on azymuth pump are:
1. Driver's hatch in down position,
2. Unblocked turret and
3. "System" switch turned on at the gunner's handle.
Only then will the red lamp at the gunner's handle be turned on.

Condition for turning on the elevation pump:
Mechanism for giving elevation - there is a switch for turning on the elevation pump.

"MG/Gun" switch at the gunner's handle in this version of the system only selects the balistic in the computer. In this version, it doesn't forbid shooting with non-selected balistic (MG/Gun). In other versions (not for JNA), this switch forbids shooting the gun, if the MG balistic is selected and vice versa.

Pozdrav

Vlado



* Richtgriffe 1.jpg (195.67 KB, 1200x678 - viewed 18 times.)
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StefanK
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« Reply #6351 on: January 13, 2022, 03:52:07 pm »

Vlado, that really helped me a lot! Thank you.

The safety switches (driver hatch, trurret, hand crank, also: stub (poddon) not captured) that have to be closed, that's like the 2E28 of the T-72.
The thing about the Selector Gun/Coax was new to me. Yes, also with the T-72 you had to concentrate your thoughts so that you didn't shoot a 125 mm at the PKT-target in 400 meters. But with the TPD-K1 you couldn't switch on a separate ballistics for the 7.62 mm coax. It was a little "underexposed", but it wasn't much of a problem either.
BTW, we also had a key for the laser on the Leopard. But I thought that was an exaggeration. Instead, the MG-3 Coax was a shotgun and not a "sniper rifle" like the PKT.

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micha
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« Reply #6352 on: January 13, 2022, 07:08:22 pm »



   PKT is never sniper rifle at all because of his montage on the hull with leading sleeve which make PKT acts like hanging doll.



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StefanK
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« Reply #6353 on: January 13, 2022, 07:38:27 pm »

Sure, not really a sniper rifle. It's also a machine gun. But you can shoot pretty much "on the spot" with it. You can't do that with the Coax MG-3 from the Leopard.
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kosmonaut
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« Reply #6354 on: January 13, 2022, 08:24:38 pm »

Sto vi strucnjaci ne naplacujete ove informacije ovim strancima sto zele da se dokopaju nase tehnologije?
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StefanK
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« Reply #6355 on: January 13, 2022, 08:45:27 pm »

And on we go.  Roll Eyes

In the operating mode POLY STAB (Half Stab or Half automatic), the electrohydraulics are now switched on for elevation and traverse. The ballistic calculator is working and can control the mirror.

If the computer moves the mirror for the shot after the laser has been applied, are the gun and turret rotated in opposite directions by the electro-hydraulics? So that the gunner gets the impression that the reticle hasn't moved? Or does the aiming mark have to be brought to the target again because the reticle has jumped?

I think I'm then actually "through" with this question. Probably.  angel



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PakleniVuk
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Ko laje zlo ne misli


« Reply #6356 on: January 13, 2022, 10:52:14 pm »

Sto vi strucnjaci ne naplacujete ove informacije ovim strancima sto zele da se dokopaju nase tehnologije?
Kad bi naplaćivali neko bi morao da ih privede,ovako kada dele besplatno onda nije krivično delo.  A ujedno teraju ove mlađe inžinjere da pobacaju sve iz tenka u kantu za đubre i u svaki deo ugrade nešto novo.  Jer ako ostane sve kako je bilo ništa ne sprečava te strance da nam sutra zaplene negde tenk ,uđu u njega i okrenu ga protiv nas  (bilo da smo Srbi, Hrvati ili Slovenci). A postoji i teorija da je ovo dobro kao reklama.  Možda neko u Africi ili na Bliskom Istoku shvati da je M-84 toliko dobar te izdvoji keš i kupi ga... 'Bem li ga šta je poenta, al izgleda kao da ne može da izađe na loše  Wink
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micha
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« Reply #6357 on: January 14, 2022, 01:01:06 am »




   Vladimir Ivanović je upravo na ovom forumu više puta objasnio kako smo uopšte došli do SUV-a (prepravkom švedskog probnog SUV-a za T-55 od koga je SFRJ odustala ) i da je to prevaziđena tehnologija sa početka 80-tih godina prošlog veka. Reverznim inženjeringom se danas lako može sve kopirati pogotovu što postoji toliko primeraka ovog tenka svuda po svetu . Obješnjenja i pomoć koju na ovom forumu ukazujemo zainteresovanim strancima je čista kurtoazija i ponos ali i tuga šta smo nekad proizvodili i proavali a sad ispade da ne znamo ni da ga koristimo! Još ima ljudi koji znaju kako se pravi najbolji tenk na svetu.





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StefanK
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« Reply #6358 on: January 14, 2022, 10:12:04 am »

I don't think this is about state secrets. What we are discussing here is knowledge that every recruit should have if they are well trained.
And yes really, the M-84 from Yugoslavia should not hide. Successfully mass-producing a tank is a tremendous feat. You have to have a very well developed industrial culture and companies that master high technology. Not many countries in the world can do that. One can rightly be proud of that. And then you can show it publicly. So that this is not forgotten. And that's why I want to present the M-84 on my Homepage. That's why everything has to be presented as correctly as possible.

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S.PALESTINAC
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Znam da je ovo vreme agresivne propagande al....?


« Reply #6359 on: January 16, 2022, 03:16:05 pm »

Po uzoru na licencnu dokumentaciju u ĐĐ su napisana tehnička uputstva TU-1 knjiga 1 i 2 gde je obuhvaćeno kompletno rukovanje i tehničko održavanje sa opisom funkcionisanja sistema u tenku.
Mnogo toga je navedeno svakako više od onoga što je potrebno prosečnoj posadi pa je vojska pravila skraćene verzije kako bi olakšala pristup za posade.
Ova literatura je prevedena na engleski i arapski jezik i dostavljena u Kuvajt.
Nema tu više nikakvi tajni a ako se i pojave neki detalji iz pojedini sklopova to je već odavno prevaziđeno za one koji bi se bavili ovom problematikom.
Za one koji su ozbiljnije radili na ovom projektu korisnije je da se čuju neka iskustva iz prakse od korisnika proizvoda nego da se prepisuju tekstovi iz postojeće literature.

Svakako svako može izneti svoje mišljenje, svoju ocenu ali da bi ona bila validna i imala težinu taj mora da bude u materiji za korak ispred onoga koga kritikuje i da iza sebe ima stvarne i proverljive rezultate.
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