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Author Topic: Srušio se malezijski putnički avion u Ukrajini  (Read 188883 times)
 
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kumbor
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« Reply #75 on: July 18, 2014, 03:40:52 pm »

Rano sam se ponadao. Obama se obraća javnosti za sat vremena. Tražiće hitnu predaju crnih kutija npr. Holanđanima. SAD više ne smatraju "mogućim", već "verovatnim" da su avion oborile proruske snage. Kažu da kijevske snage "nisu imale tehničkih mogućnosti da obore avion". Istraga ... hm. Istraga nije ni počela, ali se ne može voditi u Rusiji.
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« Reply #76 on: July 18, 2014, 03:56:21 pm »

Rano sam se ponadao. Obama se obraća javnosti za sat vremena. Tražiće hitnu predaju crnih kutija npr. Holanđanima. SAD više ne smatraju "mogućim", već "verovatnim" da su avion oborile proruske snage. Kažu da kijevske snage "nisu imale tehničkih mogućnosti da obore avion". Istraga ... hm. Istraga nije ni počela, ali se ne može voditi u Rusiji.

Opet idu preko itrenacionalnog zakona.  Kad ce vise taj polucrnac nauciti da USSA nije centar sveta i da niko njima ne mora da odgovara.  Crne kutije moraju biti predate International Civil Aviation Organization...a ne Holandiji, Maleziji ili USSA...
« Last Edit: July 18, 2014, 03:58:35 pm by SOLARIS 1972 » Logged
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« Reply #77 on: July 18, 2014, 04:08:09 pm »

Kako cujem na HR dogovoreno je trodnevno primirje a na lice mjesta su stigli istrazitelji.

Quote
International investigators have arrived at the crash site of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17, after rebels in eastern Ukraine allowed them access.

The Organization for the Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE) said 30 of its staff arrived by helicopter at the scene near the village of Grabovo.

The plane, carrying 298 people, crashed in rebel-held territory on Thursday.

The two sides in Ukraine's civil conflict have accused each other of shooting the jet down with a missile.

The Boeing 777 was flying from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur. It fell between Krasni Luch in Luhansk region and Shakhtarsk in the neighbouring region of Donetsk.

Latest figures released by Malaysia Airlines show the plane was carrying at least 189 Dutch nationals, 27 Australians, 44 Malaysians (including 15 crew), 12 Indonesians and nine Britons.

  http://www.bbc.com/
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« Reply #78 on: July 18, 2014, 04:34:40 pm »

Postoje informacije da je snimak navodnog  razgovora dvojice proruskih vojnika u Ukrajini,a koji mnogi sada vide kao dokaz da su oni oborili putnički avion,postavljen jedan dan ranije 16.07.14 u 19:07h .Ustanovljeno je na osnovu svojstava prvopostavljenog fajla na internet.Verovatno bi neko i od "naših hakera"  mogao  to da proveri i potvrdi ili opovrgne.Potrebne informacije su ovde

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« Reply #79 on: July 18, 2014, 04:56:17 pm »

Opet idu preko itrenacionalnog zakona.  Kad ce vise taj polucrnac nauciti da USSA nije centar sveta i da niko njima ne mora da odgovara.  Crne kutije moraju biti predate International Civil Aviation Organization...a ne Holandiji, Maleziji ili USSA...

I što bi ICAO s njima ? Istragu vode:

  • Istražitelji zemlje u kojoj se nesreća dogodila
    Istražitelji zemlje vlasnika / registracije / zastave pripadnosti letjelice
    Istražitelji zemlje proizvođača letjelice

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« Reply #80 on: July 18, 2014, 06:11:18 pm »

Navodni krivac. Obratite pažnju na podvučeni tekst. Još će oni "četnici" sa Krima ispasti krivi.

Missile profile: 9K37 Buk

17 July 2014

Type

Self-propelled Surface-to-Air Missile (SAM) system

Development

The 9K37 Buk (NATO SA-11 'Gadfly') was developed in accordance with the Resolution of the CPSU Central Committee and USSR Council of Ministers dated 13 January 1972 using two self-propelled mounts, the 9A38 and the 9A310. The NIIP Research Institute of Instrument Design was assigned prime developer whilst the Sverdlovsk based Novator Design Bureau was tasked to develop the 9M38 missile. Developmental trials and firing took place at the Kapustin Yar Missile Test Range (KYMTR) starting in August 1975 and lasted until March 1979. The first Buk with the 9M38 missile became operational in 1978 associated with the Kub 3M9M3 missiles, this became known as the Kub-M4 system. However, the full configuration of Buk continued testing from November 1977 through 1979 and became operational in 1980. The system is part of the replacement for the Krug (NATO SA-4 'Ganef') at the army (corps) level. The first Buk brigade became operational in 1980, although significant numbers were not deployed until the late 1980s.

The system is known in the Russian Federation as the 9K37 Buk (Russian for 'beech') with the complete system, including the radar and support equipment, having a Russian Industrial Index number, 9K37. The export version is known as the 'Gang', with the various sub-elements having the suffix, 'E' (for Ehksportiynyi; Russian for export) added to their designations, for example 9A310M1E. The first export order came from Syria in 1983, with deliveries beginning in 1986.

Due to a number of problems with the original Buk system, including the original surveillance radar Tube Arm, an improved system was already in development in 1980 to improve its combat capabilities, protection from countermeasures and anti-radiation missiles. Testing the new system was conducted throughout 1982. Known as the Buk-M1, this entered service in 1983 and introduced the 9S18M1 'Snow Drift' surveillance radar into service. The Buk can also be used to engage tactical missiles and rockets; successful trials were undertaken in 1992 against simulated Pershing and MLRS type targets.The former Yugoslavia ordered the system in the late 1980s with a small number of tracked launchers arriving before the Civil War broke out. It is believed that these were non-operational during the NATO Kosovo/Serbia bombing campaign. The principal sub-units are based on a full-tracked chassis developed and built by the Metrovagonmash Joint Stock Company from the GM-539 design. This provides protection from small arms fire as well as being sealed against NBC attack.

During June 2004, it was reported from Russia that work on upgrading the Buk SAM system's radar was continuing within the Almaz/Antei Concern of Air Defence and the development of a common surface-to-air missile system expected shortly. Furthermore, the concept was to make provision for a modular system able to engage targets in the short, medium and long ranges by re-configuring various units and modules.

Description

The original missile used by the Buk system is the 9M38, which was subsequently replaced with the 9M317. The 9M38 missiles employ the 9B-1103M (diameter 350 mm) seeker that has an acquisition range of 40 km for 5 m2 RCS targets.

A total of six targets can be engaged simultaneously by a battery while they are flying on different bearings and at different altitudes and ranges. A typical battery comprises a Command Post (CP) vehicle, a Target Acquisition Radar (TAR) vehicle and six Self-Propelled Mounts (SPMs) that act as the launcher vehicles. A specialist Loader-Launcher (LL) vehicle that acts both as missile transloader and additional launch unit supports pair of launchers.

A Buk regiment comprises four such batteries and a Regimental Target Acquisition Battery with two long-range early-warning search radars.

The Buk self-propelled launcher is also offered as an upgrade to the 2K12 Kub/Kvadrat system. Known as the Kub-M4 system, it entered service in 1978 and involves a single dual-capable 9A310/9A38 SPM attached to each 2K12 battery to double the target engagement capabilities. A 9A39M1 loader-launcher supports the 9A310/9A38.

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« Reply #81 on: July 18, 2014, 06:13:00 pm »

MH017 mostly likely downed by Russian-backed separatists

Reuben F Johnson Little Havana, Miami
17 July 2014

Key Points

There is growing evidence that Russian-backed Ukrainian separatists were responsible for the downing of Malaysia Airlines flight 017 over Ukraine
A Buk (SA-11 'Gadfly') system captured by the separatists may have been responsible for the shootdown
A growing body of evidence points to Russian-backed separatists as being responsible for the shootdown of Malaysia Airlines (MH) flight 017 on 17 July. The aircraft was flying in airspace over the Russia-Ukraine border near the city of Donetsk when it appears to have been shot down by a Russian-made Buk (SA-11 'Gadfly') surface-to-air-missile (SAM) battery.

United States intelligence sources confirm that the aircraft was hit by a SAM, while former Soviet and Ukrainian air defence specialists in Kiev told IHS Jane’s that this missile was either from a Buk unit controlled by the Russian-backed rebels in Ukraine’s eastern regions or possibly from a battery located on the territory of Russia itself.

The Ukrainian military “has no Buk systems in this part of the country any longer”, said one former air defence forces officer. The Buk units that were based in this region were taken over by Russian-backed separatists on 29 June when they overran a Ukrainian military installation. The separatists posted photos of their new acquisitions on Russian social media on the same day, but deleted these internet postings on 17 July as soon as it was clear that the aircraft downed was a civilian airliner and not a military target.

The same former air defence officer also pointed out that the Ukrainian military has safeguards in place to prevent this kind of an accident from ever occurring. “There is a datalink from the civilian air traffic control system that monitors all commercial airline and civil aviation flights," he explained. "This input into the air defence command provides full coverage of all non-military flights, so it is nearly impossible for a Ukrainian armed forces unit to have brought down this airliner. It is almost certainly one of these rebel bands operating in the east of Ukraine, operating with Russian assistance and simply shooting at anything that passes over their heads.”

Ironically, OAO Concern PVO Almaz-Antei, the defence industrial conglomerate that produces the Buk SAM system, was one of the several Russian firms hit with a list of new US sanctions on the day before MH17 came down and was added to the US Treasury Department’s Office of Foreign Asset Control (OFAC) list.

Other analysts pointed out that on the morning MH017 was shot down, a captured Buk system was seen in the town of Snezhnoe, which is approximately 15 miles southeast of the crash site. Later in the day, the same Buk battery was filmed heading to a known rebel position south of the city, which was about 20 miles southeast of the reported crash site.

The most plausible theory, said a NATO intelligence specialist, is that the separatists believed that they were shooting at another military target like the Antonov An-26 that was brought down earlier that week. “When they saw that they had instead shot down a Malaysian airliner they panicked, which accounts for their panicked deletions of all social media postings related to this incident,” said the NATO source.

Supporting this theory are radio conversations between Ukrainian separatists and Russian military intelligence (GRU) officers operating in Ukrainian territory that were recorded by the Ukrainian Security Service (SBU) and released late on 17 July. In these conversations a scouting team from the separatists reports that it has visited the aircraft crash site and has some 'bad news' in that the aircraft is a civilian airliner and not a military aircraft. The officer the team is speaking with says the aircraft “was probably trying to drop spies [into Ukraine]” and “should not have been flying over a war zone”.

The NATO intelligence specialist pointed out that the recordings “show that the Russian ‘helpers’ realise that they now have an international incident on their hands – and they probably also gave the order for separatists to erase all evidence – including these internet postings". He added: "It will be interesting to see if we ever find this Buk battery again or if someone now tries to dump it into the river.”

The NATO analyst pointed out that this also explains reports that the aircraft’s flight recorders have not been left at the accident scene per international regulations and accepted practice, but instead may have been sent to Moscow “in order to doctor this evidence as well”.

Other evidence, he said, cannot be hidden, “such as the radar tracks of the battery and the talkback between the radar and the missile after it has launched. These and other electronic emissions are ‘electronic fingerprints’ that have been recorded and will not take long to analyse.

"There are also methods of reverse-trajectory computational analysis that can reproduce the flight path of the missile and will show the precise launch area," he said. "At this point there is almost nothing that is not clear or is open to interpretation.”

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« Reply #82 on: July 18, 2014, 06:30:23 pm »

Pilot aviona se "osetio nesigurno" iznad Ukrajine, pa skrenuo pravo u ratnu zonu
   18.07.2014.

Pilot malezijskog aviona "boing 777" na letu MH17 iz Amsterdama do Kuala Lumpura saopštio je putem radio veze da se "osetio nesigurno" u vezi sa maršrutom iznad Ukrajine. Prema proceni eksperata, on je tada napravio tragičnu odluku i skrenuo avion u smeru teritorije koju drže proruski separatisti na istoku te države koji su u letelici videli ukrajinski vojni transportni avion.
 
Doktor Igor Sutjagin, saradnik za Ruske studije na britanskom institutu RUSI (Royal United Services Institution), kazao je za "Dejli mejl" da veruje da su pobunjenici iz trećeg okruga Toreza, grada na istoku Ukrajine, oborili malezijski avion koristeći raketni sistem "buk". On je naveo da je ta informacija procurila iz izvora koji nije želeo da imenuje i koji tvrdi da je pilot aviona samoinicijativno promenio putanju letelice.
- Nije uopšte znao da će pobunjenici za njegov avion pomisliti da je ukrajinska vladina letelica koja donosi nove zalihe vojsci - tvrdi Sutjagin.
Njegova teorija slaže se sa podacima sa sajta flightaware.com koji prati civilni vazduhoplovni saobraćaj. Taj sajt navodi da je let MH17 odstupio za oko 200 kilometara severno od putanje koju je „boing 777“ malezijske aviokompanije koristio ranije, tako da se avion našao tačno iznad ratne zone Donjeckog regiona. Rusko Ministarstvo odbrane tvrdi da je maršruta aviona i mesto na koje je pao potpadaju pod zonu delovanja dve ukrajinske protivazdušne odbrane. Tviteraš Vangelis Karmiros napisao je, pozivajući se takođe na mapu putanje leta MH17 sa ovog sajta, da su malezijski avion i ukrajinski transportni "iljušin 76" odavali na radaru isti signal.
- Dva aviona su se približila jedan drugom. Oni (pobunjenici) pokušali su da obore avion koji je nosio obnovu zaliha za brigadu. Verovali su da pucaju na vojni avion, ali su greškom oborili civilnu letelicu - napisao je Karmiros.
Nakon tragedije, brojne avio-kompanije su proglasile Ukrajinu zonom u koju neće leteti, ali se sve do juče ruta preko Donjeckog regiona smatrala sigurnom za civilnu avijaciju. Prošle nedelje Ukrajina je zatvorila vazdušni prostor na istoku za civilni saobraćaj do visine 7.900 metara, ali je MH17 leteo na 10.600 metara. Proruske snage koriste relativno jednostavne rakete poput rakete zemlja-vazduh dometa 3.500 metara za ciljeve u vazduhu, zbog čega su očigledno avio-kompanije i ukrajinska kontrola civilne avijacije dozvoljavale avionima na velikim visinama letove iznad zabranjene zone.
- "Malejža erlajns' je koristio ovu rutu godinama i uvek je bila sigurna. Čak 15 od 16 azijsko-pacifičkih avio-kompanija a i neke iz Evrope lete tom trasom - rekao je malezijski ministar saobraćaja Liov Tijong Lai na konferenciji za štampu dodavši da "nije bilo instrukcija u poslednji čas da se promeni putanja leta".

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« Reply #83 on: July 18, 2014, 06:31:54 pm »

Počinjali su ratovi i za manje stvari...
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« Reply #84 on: July 18, 2014, 06:33:39 pm »

Predhodnih 10 letova preko Ukrajine su imali putanju preko Azovskog mora,samo je ovaj malezijski navođen na maršutu preko Donjecka  Wink




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« Reply #85 on: July 18, 2014, 06:58:52 pm »


Ma ništa se tu posebnog neće desiti. Ni prvo ni zadnje rušenje a da niko nikad nije odgovarao. Rušili su
i Rusi i Ameri i Francuzi pa i Ukrajinci. I šta je bilo, pojeo vuk magarca. Ništa. I sada će biti isto.

Krive su isključivo služve za kontrolu i navođenje. Nebitno koje, neko reče čak i evropska. Navodila je
nesretni avion kroz ratno područje. I eto šta se desilo. Sad su svi pametni. Ko i na koji način ikad može
garantirati da ispod zone ratnog područja nema toga i toga. I sad su kao bili pametni i eto šta se desilo.

Sva osmatračka služba kontrole leta, bilo čija, ukrajinska, ruska i koja ne sve, koje su bile aktivne morale
su vidjeti u zraku sve objekte, pa prema tome i u ovom slučaju šta je sve bilo gore. U pitanju su radari,
a oni sve mogu registrirati. Da li će dati na uvid istražiteljima to je već druga stvar.
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« Reply #86 on: July 18, 2014, 07:08:22 pm »

Izjava Strelkova daje neke nove informacije u vezi sa tim putničkim avionom koji izgleda nije običan...naime imao je velike količine medikamenata,krvnog seruma,....Leševi pronađeni bez krvi,nesnošljiv smrad se proširio za pola sata što je prilično neverovatno....
Pilotska kabina je bila puna krvi iako nije bila uopšte oštećena prilikom pada...

Quote
Игорь Стрелков: часть людей из Боинга умерли за несколько суток до катастрофы

Игорь Стрелков ответил на вопросы по падению малайзийского Боинга. Есть версия, что гражданский самолет был сбит СУ-27. «Информация такая есть, но я пока сам не разобрался в ситуации до конца, поэтому данную версию (как и все другие) не озвучивал». «По данным людей, которые собирали трупы, значительная часть трупов — „несвежая“ — люди умерли до нескольких суток тому назад. За полную достоверность данной информации не ручаюсь — конечно же, необходимо заключение судмедэкспертов». — Кто-то же еще должен пилотировать такой самолет, покинуть который в том числе будет невозможно. Версия с самолетом, полным мертвецов, захватывающая, конечно, но как-то смысла не видно. «Во-первых, далеко не все люди в самолете были мертвы до падения. Во-вторых, в самолете было обнаружено большое количество медикаментов, сыворотки крови и прочего, что нехарактерно для обычного лайнера. Похоже, что имел место медицинский спец-груз. В-третьих, ни на чем не настаиваю (пока). Просто буквально сейчас беседовал с двумя людьми, лично собиравшими трупы сразу после падения (оба — из Шахтерска и прибыли на место менее чем через полчаса после катастрофы). С их слов и пишу. Они подчеркнули, что множество трупов оказались „совсем бескровные“ — как будто кровь свернулась задолго до катастрофы. Также отмечали и сильнейший трупный запах, отмеченный многими местными жителями — такого запаха в любую погоду за полчаса образоваться не могло, а погода вчера была пасмурная, не слишком жаркая. В-четвертых, сам с крайним подозрением отношусь ко всяческим „конспирологиям“, но 18 наших бойцов, отравленных химией на позициях в Семеновке, расстрелы членов семей ополченцев и прочие „маленькие радости свидомых патриотов“ убедили меня, что украинские власти способны на любую подлость. Пилоты, естественно, были вполне живые — вся кабина (а передняя часть сохранилась хорошо) была буквально залита их кровью».

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« Reply #87 on: July 18, 2014, 07:10:16 pm »

Da li je borba protiv HIV-a unazađena za 100 godina? U oborenom avionu bilo 100 stručnjaka za ovu bolest
Gardijan/DM   18.07.2014.

Pored Joepa Langea, čuvenog istraživača koji se bavio virusom humane imunodeficijencije(HIV), u oborenom malezijskom avionu nastradalo je ukupno oko 100 vodećih svetskih naučnika i istraživača iz ove oblasti, koji su ovom letelicom putovali na svetsku konferenciju o sidi u Sidneju.

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Naučnici se stoga plaše da bi tragedija aviona u isto vreme mogla predstavljati tragediju i za borbu protiv opakog virusa, koja će ovim biti na duži rok unazađena. Delegatima na plenarnoj sednici uoči konferencije o sidi 2014. saopšteno je da razmena mejlova pokazuje da je karte za let MH17 rezervisalo oko stotinu učesnika, mada tačan broj naučnika nastradalih u avionu oborenom raketom zemlja- vazduh još uvek ne može da bude potvrđen.

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- Ti ljudi su bili neki od najboljih i najblistavijih umova među istraživačima koji se bave ovom problematikom, oni koji su čitavu karijeru posvetili borbi prtiv opakog virusa. Ovde smo svi veoma tužni, hodnici su puni ljudi u suzama- kaže Klajv Aspin, veteran u sitraživanju HIV virusa. On se javio sa plenarne sadnice uoči konferencije u Sidneju, kojoj treba da prisustvuje oko 14.000 učesnika.
- Među tim ljudima bilo je nekih vrlo ozbiljnih uistraživača. To će imati globalnih posledica, jer se posledice osete kad god se izgube vodeći ljudi na nekom naučnom polju. To znanje je nenadoknadivo, i to ovu katastrofu podiže na globalni nivo, poput 11. septembra - smatra profesopr Ričard Bojd, direktor Laboratorija za matične čelije i imunologiju Univerziteta Monaš iz Melburna.

Izvor: www.blic.rs


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« Reply #88 on: July 18, 2014, 07:10:42 pm »

Prerano su se krenuli hvaliti po netu, ebi ga, ljudi su mrtvi.
Možda je ovo čak šansa da konačno sjednu za  pregovarački stol.

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« Reply #89 on: July 18, 2014, 07:29:36 pm »

Било би заиста добро да ова несрећа буде прекретница ка прекиду оружаног сукоба.

Вероватно се никад неће тачно утврдити ко је непосредно одговоран. Очигледно је да су сви помало одговорни јер и једни и други "сеире" (злобно се радују) показујући прстом једни на друге. као да су и једни и други баш желели да се то деси да могу да оплету по оној другој страни.

За мене је заиста чудно да се у ратном сукобу у коме дејствује војна авијација, небитно са којих висина, где се користе или дежурају у највишем степену спремности за дејство најмодернији ракетни системи, дозвољава лет цивилних авиона, па макар и на 20000м (на којој иначе не лете). Ко је то дозволио, тај је основни кривац. Хајде да се није знало, али данима се говори, гледа на ТВ, пише и гледа по Интеренету о дејству ПВО система, сумњиче се побуњеници да имају БУК (а и они хвале да га имају), падају војни авиони, падају војни транспортери на висинама од 6500м, и ништа, тече цивилни саобраћај изнад 8000м. За мене је то невероватно. Нећу да верујем да је тај неко, ко је о томе одлучивао, то дозволио, имао задње намере. Вероваћу да је био неодговоран. Надам се да ће међународна организација која се бави ваздухопловством, посебно праћење авиона у ваздушном простору, извући неке поуке из ове ситуације.

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